S01 Ep11: Profitable Passion: How Unpacking Money Baggage Can Lead to Entrepreneurial Success with Julie Herres

EntrepreneurshipSelf-ImprovementFinances

Feb 27

Written By Melissa Wesner

Money can be a taboo topic, and yet it’s something that’s necessary for us to look at in our personal and entrepreneurial lives. Today’s guest, Julie Herres, is the Founder of GreenOak Accounting, author of Profit First for Therapists, and host of the Therapy for your Money podcast. In the process of looking at entrepreneur’s money and helping them make financial decisions, Julie gets to witness entrepreneurs’ “money stuff” that comes up along the way.
In this episode, you’ll get to hear Julie talk about:
• How money baggage can get in the way of your dreams
• How tackling money baggage can support your dreams
• Ways entrepreneurs can ground their dreams in a financial reality
• Money and expansion
• Investment & guilt!
And, don’t worry! Julie talks about her own lived experiences around entrepreneurship and money too!
Follow Julie Herres at GreenOak Accounting:
Julie’s Instagram: @julie.herres
GreenOak Accounting Instagram: @greenoakacct
Facebook: www.facebook.com/greenoakacct
Website: www.greenoakaccounting.com
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (00:01)
Welcome back to the Dreaming and Doing podcast. I am here today with Julie Herres who is an accountant, CEO of Greenoak Accounting, and author of Profit First for Therapists. I know that a lot of entrepreneurs are familiar with the Profit First book in general, and Julie has come out with this new book that is specific to therapists. I'm super excited to have her here. I've known Julie for a little while now.
So I'm really looking forward to hearing about our conversation around money and our dreams. So welcome, Julie.
Julie Herres (00:36)
Hi, Melissa, good to see you. And I'm excited, I'm always excited to chat about money, even though that can be a slightly stressful topic for some, but we're gonna talk about it in a very low pressure way.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (00:49)
Yes. Well, I'm so excited to be talking about this because one, I think one of the things that I see is money is something that can interfere with people pursuing their dreams, right? It's a reason of, well, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to sign up for this. I don't have the money right now. We've probably either all said that or heard someone say that money was a reason for not pursuing their dreams. And yet money is also sometimes necessary to pursue our dreams. So I'm going to be super curious to hear what you have to say.
But before we get started, I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about your work with therapists around money because I know that as a profession, there are some trends and patterns that you might see around money stuff that counselors have.
Julie Herres (01:40)
Yeah, there, so I mean, in all the years I've been an accountant, I had never met an industry that's quite like mental health in the sense that I usually don't have to convince clients that they should make a profit in their business. But when it comes to therapists, that is usually part of our conversation. Or when it's not, in the rare cases that it's not, it's because they...
that practice owner or clinician has done their own work around their money mindset and they've moved beyond that, but like they did have that at some point. Cause you talk to a construction business owner, a car dealership owner, like, yeah, obviously I'm gonna make money in this business. But when you talk to a therapist, like, oh, well I feel guilty, how could I? I need to help people and like, but yeah, those things are all true. And you also need to make a living. Like you need to have a roof over your head.
and food to eat on the table, or you're not going to show up as the best clinician you can be. Like those can coexist together.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (02:41)
Yes, so making money isn't bad and you don't have to feel guilty about it.
Julie Herres (02:45)
Seriously, no, exactly. I think every practice should be profitable. Every business should be profitable and that should always be the goal, right? Every business that is not a nonprofit, but even a nonprofit has to have income that is higher than expenses. That's just how it works or else the business ceases to exist. That's also the same for a household. If you spend more than you make, at some point the household is going to be a significant financial distress.
and something's gotta give. So across the line, these are lessons that apply to really everyone in every situation. If you spend less than you make and you have a profit, then you're good to go.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (03:24)
Yes, and I know that that's part of what your book is about, right? Thinking about profit in your business. Talk with us maybe a little bit about your book, Profit First for Therapists, and how maybe it's a little bit different from the initial Profit First book.
Julie Herres (03:41)
Yeah, so Profit First is first and foremost a cashflow management system. The original book is written by Mike McCallewitz and has a truly occult following. I wrote Profit First for therapists that's specifically for therapists. So I worked with Mike and Mike's team, but my team and I had already adapted the cashflow system to therapists in private practice. And there were just a couple of things that are a little bit different than any...
any old business out there. And we were seeing clients struggle often enough with the implementation that I knew they needed more of a detailed roadmap specifically for therapists. So really the concept in Profit First is that instead of looking at the traditional accounting equation, which is income minus expenses equals profit, turning that equation upside down, where your income minus your profit equals your expenses.
So we're building in profit from the very beginning and saying, this is going to be a profitable endeavor. And that means we have less left for expenses. But when you do that, it's kind of like putting yourself on a budget and having your savings come directly out of your paycheck. You have less money left and that means you are going to automatically spend less and get more creative because you know what you have left, right? So it's kind of like doing that. We're automating the savings piece.
and saying, this is what we have left to run the business. So let's use that instead of considering the whole pie, the whole 100% of the income as available to us, we're gonna consider, for example, 99% or 95%, this is what's available to us. So how do we make that work? And that has been incredibly successful for I think millions of businesses at this point to make sure that they are building a profit from the very beginning or from whatever point they are at right now.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (05:33)
Right, there are a lot of people who I've heard say, I'm not even getting paid. I'm paying people on my team and I'm not even getting paid.
Julie Herres (05:37)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I mean, that's a really common narrative in a small business. And in many service-based businesses, right, where you don't have a lot of infrastructure. So I'm talking a therapist, a marketing agency, where it's a service-based business, it really shouldn't be that way. You should be able to make money almost from the very beginning, right after your initial investment.
there should be a way to make money if you're pricing your services correctly, if your expenses are in line and reasonable based on the size of your business, you really should be able to make money almost immediately. Now, this is not gonna apply if you need a manufacturing plant and a lot of capital assets, or even if you're opening a restaurant where you need a physical space, you need to bill it out, you need tables and chairs and kitchen equipment, right? That's not going to apply here, but in a service business where you as the...
the owner of the business can just go, like put up a website, make an initial investment in that way, right? And maybe some networking events, a little bit of computer equipment, but almost right away you're able to go out there and say, I'm gonna charge this client $150 per hour, and there's gotta be profit in that hour.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (06:54)
Yes, I love that, right from the beginning.
Julie Herres (06:57)
Yes, yeah, so I'm not a believer that you should wait two years to pay yourself. I think that's unrealistic for most businesses, especially when you are growing at the speed of cash and starting the business with your own funds. You can and shouldn't go make money really quickly because it's possible.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (07:15)
Yeah. So as we're thinking about dreaming and doing, how can money baggage get in the way of someone's dreams?
Julie Herres (07:26)
There's a lot of situations where someone's narrative from their past will affect what they're currently doing. For example, I had always told myself that I would never be a business owner because my narrative from childhood was my mother was a serial entrepreneur and she loved to start a business but was not that good at, or she loved to start the business, she was not that good at running a business and keeping it.
sustainable and profitable long-term. So as a child, I saw that side. My mom's always struggling over here, always starting over, and that seems really hard. And then I would see my dad, who worked for the same company for 25 years, and that was our stability, right? He always paid child support, and so we always had food on the table, but that felt way more stable. So I had always told myself, I will never be a business owner because that's way more risky. And the truth is,
Somehow I became a business owner myself, not because there's no risk, but really as an adult looking in, realizing there's risk in everything that we do. Just because you work for a large company, you could still face a layoff or be let go or something happen that changes the industry. And really, if you want to be able to take control of your own destiny, business ownership can be a really good path for
a lot of people. And so my personal scenario was I was a mom of three young kids when I started my business and we just needed more money in the household. I had been freelancing, but it wasn't quite enough so I needed to just get more serious about it. But my husband was commuting as a business owner to a client site five days a week. He was in the car three hours per day. And so with three young kids, I was it.
I needed to have the flexibility to go pick up someone if the school nurse called, or to manage the teacher work days and the dentist appointments and all those things. And accounting was not exactly a flexible workplace back then, it is more so now, but you had to just go and be in the office 60 hours a week and I knew that just could not work for my family. So it kind of came out of necessity. But for years I had told myself, ah, I could not possibly do this. And then I went and did it. So I think my money narrative was,
playing against me where I probably could have done that a lot earlier and saved myself some time but like here we are.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (09:58)
Yeah, and life is funny, right? Like I'm sitting here listening to how you were like, I'm never gonna do that. That's never gonna be my story, never gonna be my experience. And then life is like, ta-da, guess what? Yes, and I'm wondering since you are helping people with money all the time in your business, what kind of money baggage do you see other entrepreneurs experiencing?
Julie Herres (10:03)
Hahaha
Just kidding. Yeah.
Yeah, there's a couple of different scenarios that I see play out often. One is money hoarding. So someone starts to do well, they will just pile and pile and pile up the cash and never be willing to take any of it home or spend it. So that sometimes does happen. And I have been guilty of that at some point where you're just afraid that it's all going to go away. And so you're just trying to hold on to it really tight. Sometimes that comes at the expense of
not reinvesting properly in the business or not paying yourself properly, even though your business maybe has grown and is successful, you're still living your life of poverty because you feel like you need to just in case, right? Or living the way you did when you had a brand new startup and you had to live really, really lean and you're not allowing yourself to do things like go on a vacation or do something nice for yourself. So that's kind of one scenario that I see often.
The other that's pretty common is kind of where money is going out as fast as it's coming in, where the money is coming in and all of a sudden someone went from maybe making $5,000 a month in their earlier days to now they're making $150,000 a month in their business. But they have figured out a way to spend every last penny of that, where they're just kind of almost afraid to keep any of it and like, oh no, I have to, I need to do this or I need to invest in that. And like, it's just going
out because there's this fear of what and Melissa you as a counselor are way more qualified at explaining the why but I suspected something like they feel guilty about making a lot more money in their life but also like it's maybe going to change them as well like who will I be if I am someone who does really well and maybe the fear of what that what that might look like what do you think
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (12:16)
Yeah, I love that. So many things that I'm thinking about going through my mind as you're talking about that. Some things that I hear people talk about. A lot of counselors, some of these conversations I don't actually hear happening, but in spaces like on podcasts where people are having those conversations, I hear people talk about it feels weird to maybe make more money than my family of origin, right?
Julie Herres (12:34)
Mm-hmm.
Sure, yeah.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (12:43)
Will having money make me different than my family? Will my family view me as different? So that's one of the things that I have sometimes heard people say.
Julie Herres (12:57)
Yeah, and I think part of it too is, I do think it goes back often, often to guilt, but just having a hard time becoming the person your business needs you to be. So becoming someone who saves and plans ahead and has an emergency fund. Like if that's not a life that you've ever been able to live, it does require a change in habits.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (13:24)
Mm-hmm.
Julie Herres (13:24)
to a certain extent, right? To say like, oh, I now have not just myself and my immediate family, I have five team members, 20 team members that I am responsible for and I need to become this more responsible person and have an emergency fund in the business. Like that requires someone to evolve and that's not an easy thing to do.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (13:48)
Yeah, and the other thing that popped into my head is also if I make more money and if it becomes known that I make more money, whether known not because someone's talking about it but because of a purchase. You've maybe bought a brand new car or you've brought a new home or something
or maybe you start showing up differently or taking vacations. What will people think? What labels might people use to me? Right?
Julie Herres (14:12)
Mm-hmm.
So true, so true. Or what will my employees think? I think that one can show up really, really easily. What will the team think? Will they think I'm taking all of their money and just getting rich over here and ask me for a raise, right? There's all of this emotional turmoil that can come up from that.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (14:20)
Yes.
Yup.
Absolutely. I'm thinking about that as well. What will people think? I sometimes feel like I need people to know that I'm working really hard. I'm not just sitting back here twiddling my thumbs. I'm still working hard. I know that can come up. Yeah, but even if someone says jokingly like, okay, money bags. Right?
Julie Herres (14:47)
Yes.
Yes.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (15:02)
Uh, or, oh, you must be rich, right? These things that maybe are said in jest or we're just joking. Um, but if you've grown up with negative connotations around money, like rich people are bad, rich people get their money in by doing things that are not so great, then how does that feel if you start making money?
Julie Herres (15:08)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Another point to that too is sometimes someone who is not a business owner won't understand that having a million dollar a year business does not mean that you the owner are making a million dollars per year. Those are two very, very different things. And as business owners, we know that's not true. But so there might be this connotation of, oh, well, she's got a million dollar business. Like she must have all this money to be able to help or give us raises, but like that's not.
there's a lot of expenses in a million dollar per year business. And you might not be making more than 100, 150, 200,000, which is still a lot of money, right? But it's not like you're over here cashing in a million dollars a year. And if you were, good for you. That's because your business is even larger than that. So there's a lot of different pieces. But for someone, maybe a family of origin, a parent who's thinking like, oh, look at that over here.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (15:57)
Mm-hmm.
Julie Herres (16:22)
I never had a job making more than 50 grand and here you are making a million dollars. Like, those are not the same thing.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (16:28)
Right. And one of the things that I've begun thinking about as I'm doing different coaching programs with entrepreneurs in different industries is it's very different if someone has a million dollar business and let's say it's a group practice where you hire a number of people versus a million dollar business that is based off of let's say a coaching practice that has one person providing the majority of the services or courses and maybe they have a few contractors who
Julie Herres (16:51)
Yes.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (16:58)
Those are very different experiences.
Julie Herres (17:00)
Yes, very vastly, vastly different. Yes, you're absolutely right.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (17:05)
Yeah, yeah, so I love all of these things just to be thinking about and hopefully people who are listening are thinking about like what is my money stuff? Like am I the saver? Am I the person who has a hard time spending? Am I the person who spends too much or what messages have I received growing up about money or people who have money and how is that showing up for me today?
Julie Herres (17:14)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, another issue that can sometimes come up with business owners or newer business owners is if you're an employee somewhere and you're just getting paid, really if you want to have more money available, the only option for you is to reduce your expenses. Right? So if you, like right now there's a lot of ads for, I think it's called Rocket Money where like, oh, we'll save you a thousand dollars a month. And I think that's great. I think looking at your expenses is a great thing.
But when you are a business owner, you have a second option that is often even more efficient. And that is you can also just increase your income. You can and probably should on a regular basis, look at your expenses. But if you're spending an hour on the phone with Comcast to save $20 on your monthly phone bill, when you could spend that hour just making a lot way more than that, like you can use your time as efficiently as possible and just go make a lot more money instead.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (18:08)
Mm-hmm.
Julie Herres (18:30)
and that's, you're going to end up ahead. But that's a hard mindset shift to make as a business owner too of like, oh, let's just go make more. So when it comes to things like, oh, I can't afford this, when I hear a business owner say, I can't afford this, where my mind goes is like, oh, maybe I don't see the value in this, or I don't think I can go make enough money to make this happen. And that's...
that happens sometimes where they just don't believe in themselves and that the fact that they can go and create the space for this specific thing.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (19:07)
Yeah, and you're making me think about two different entrepreneur coaches who I heard at a conference last year, and both of them spoke to that phrase, like, oh, I can't afford it, right? And how often have we heard people say that in their businesses or even in their personal lives? And both of these coaches and entrepreneurs said, I can't afford it for me. It means I'm not willing to be creative to figure out how to make that money, which maybe feels a little bit tough.
Julie Herres (19:34)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (19:37)
Like that's a tough thing to say. And also, right, how can we be creative and
go after, like you said, the bigger ticket items instead of just being like, let me save $5. I won't get my coffee.
Julie Herres (19:49)
Yes, yes. And there is value in that too, but I just don't think that's where an entrepreneur should be spending most of their time. And like, oh, let me make my own coffee. Or like, that's great. I make my own coffee every day because I like to. I want to have it like the second I get up, it's prepped. I'm pushing the button. I want it right now. But if it was important to me to go get a coffee down the street every day, like I would make space for that because that's something that brings me joy.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (20:08)
I'm with you.
Julie Herres (20:17)
So I would just make the space I need to for it. So it's really just a question of like, what is the priority and how are we going to make space for that in your life?
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (20:29)
Yes, and I think, Julie, I told you this story before. It might have been my first full year in private practice. I had my first, like my accountant, and I paid my quarterly taxes, and I was walking into my accounting meeting feeling so proud. I was like, look, I paid everything quarterly, just like you told me. I was so proud. And I, you know, I went to school for counseling. I have...
Julie Herres (20:49)
I did it.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (20:56)
I had no business training at the time. My thought was make money and don't spend it. That's how you do a good job by making the money but not spending it. I went into that meeting and the accountant was like, okay, well, did you save any money to pay your taxes? I'm like, I don't know.
No, I didn't put aside extra money. You told me to pay these quarterly taxes and I paid them. The taxes have been paid." And she was like, no, like you're going to owe an extra $10,000. And I just about lost it. I was like, what in the world do you mean? I'm going to owe 10,000 extra dollars. No, I did not save 10,000 extra dollars to give to the government on my taxes.
Julie Herres (21:27)
Yeah.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (21:49)
I paid what you told me to pay." She's like, well, you made more money this year because it was your first year full time running your practice and you don't have a lot of expenses. I was like, what are we going to do about this? We got to figure this out. This is not cool. This is not okay. She was like, well, you could either work less. Maybe you could work fewer hours if that's what you want to do.
you could spend a little bit more money in your business if there's trainings you want to go to or if you want to do these other things. And so from then on, I was like, oh my goodness, we're never gonna have this ever again. This is the worst experience ever. Yes. So I hear that.
Julie Herres (22:35)
It's not fun. I promise you it's also not fun to be the person on the other side of that conversation saying like, hey, you made 100,000 more than last year, which is good news, but bad news, you owe a lot more taxes. That's not a fun conversation.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (22:54)
Yes. No. You know, and so at least for me, that was a learning moment in my practice. Like, okay, like maybe being cheap all the time, like maybe you can loosen up a little bit. Like if you want to buy fresh flowers that are like $5 next door at the grocery store by your office, like maybe that's okay. Like, yeah.
Julie Herres (23:07)
Yes. Yeah.
Maybe that's gonna be okay. Yeah. I have a caveat to that, that I just wanna share Melissa. I am not a fan of buying stuff that you don't need just for a tax deduction, right? Because when you're spending, let's say spending a dollar on something that you don't need, you're saving 25 cents, 30 cents, 35 cents, right? So I'd rather you pay the tax and then have the money that's left, right? So let's say you're in a 30, even if you're in a 37% tax bracket.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (23:26)
Mm-hmm.
Julie Herres (23:44)
you spend a dollar, it's something you don't need, pay the 37 cents and have 63 cents left, right? So like usually there's a lot of zeros after this. But if it's something that you need or could be used for your business, like go take the deduction, it's just not, we're not like buying random things that are just gonna sit there and collect dust, okay? That's my little soap accounting soap box over here.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (23:50)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yes, don't buy it if you don't really need it.
Julie Herres (24:08)
Yes, but like if fresh flowers bring you joy, knock yourself out, go do it. Like if your practice can afford it, do it, prioritize it.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (24:16)
Yes, yes. Well, let me ask you Julie, you know, since often times what I hear people say is I hear people talk about how they can't do something because I don't have the money for that. Can't sign up for that. That sounds really great, but I can't sign up for that because I don't have the money. But what are some ways that tackling money baggage can support someone's dream?
Julie Herres (24:43)
I think that excuse gets thrown around often with people who have not, by people who have not done their own work, but are also not necessarily being honest with themselves. Sometimes I think I can't or I can't afford it is code for I don't really want to or I don't think it's important enough. And I think we would all be better off just being honest with ourselves and saying like, this is not a priority for me.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (24:55)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Julie Herres (25:12)
I think from an internal narrative perspective, I think that is more helpful than I can't afford it. Because if all you keep telling yourself is, I can't afford it, the mind space that you are in, I just don't think is a positive one. So I think it's okay to say, there are other things that are more important to me right now, and I'm gonna do those and revisit this later, then I can't afford it.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (25:18)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I love that pointer, right? One, because it's being more honest with yourself, it's being more honest with someone else, but also you're paying attention to what messages am I sending my brain and my body when I keep repeating, I can't afford it, I can't afford it. How does that take root in terms of informing my beliefs about what I can and cannot do or about what is possible for me?
Julie Herres (25:42)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, and then if it's something that you actually really would like to do, or do or buy or experience, whatever it may be, but you do truly think you can't afford it, that can rewire the narrative to like, how could I afford this, right? So it's not necessarily a slam dunk, but like, how could I make it work? Because those situations, it's really just math, right? The math.
is usually pretty simple if there's something that you want to do. And like in this I'm thinking retreats because I know you plan a lot of retreats Melissa and they look gorgeous, gorgeous. So if someone is thinking like I would love to go on this retreat I'm throwing a number out there it's five thousand dollars. It's just really simple amount to see how many clients would I need to see for this to be possible? How many courses do I need to sell? How many you know units of whatever would make this possible?
And then there's always that there's, that's the opportunity cost. Is it worth it? Is it worth it for me to do this additional work for this outcome? Maybe, maybe not, right? But that's an educated decision. But that my accounting brain goes there of like, what is the true cost or what, is there something else that can be paired back, reduced to make this possible?
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (27:24)
Yes, and so running the numbers.
Julie Herres (27:28)
Yeah, that's always where I go. I think whether it's starting a business, making a big investment, I mean, you could say that for planning a vacation also, or buying a new house, like running the numbers will not usually lead you astray as long as you're not lying to yourself. If you're being realistic on what are the actual costs, does this make financial sense?
then you've got a lot of really useful data points to make your decision. And some decisions like, should we move to this new area? That's not always a financial decision, right? There could be a piece of, well, we really would like to be closer to family or better schools or whatever it may be, right? Like the emotional side always can trump the financial side. But the financial side is always an important data point also.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (28:20)
Yeah, and I'm just, even the emotional side, I'm thinking about times where, you know, you make an emotional purchase, even though you maybe didn't really have the money or you weren't in that place because there was that emotional override, right? And not based on numbers.
Julie Herres (28:35)
Yeah, yeah. Melissa, my youngest son is eight and he has a marketing brain. So if he hears a commercial more than once, he's gonna memorize it basically. And so one of the repercussions of that is that he basically wants everything that he sees because he remembers it. So he sees a toy on a commercial, he'll say like, hey mom, can you look in Amazon? Or can you look online? How much is that?
Do I have enough money? Can I do it? And if he's going right on impulse, he always wants it right now. But so our rule, the rule that we've established together is he has to at least sleep on it. So we look at like how much money is in your bank account and we use green light. So it's a really easy, like it's just an app. He can see it on his iPad. I can see it on my side. Like how much money do you have for birthdays or Christmas or grandma or whatever? But then he has to sleep on it no matter what.
And then the next day, half the time, he does not want it anymore. But then the rest of the time, like, okay, if you've got the money, you can afford it, go do it. But like we've removed some of the emotion by doing that. Like we looked at the numbers and then we pared down the emotion a little bit and like that has been successful. I don't know if it's still gonna be successful when he's 16, we'll see. But like as an eight-year-old, this has worked so far.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (29:44)
Hmm hmm.
Well, I love it. I'm thinking this sounds like a conversations I'm sometimes having in my counseling appointments, right? About like sleeping on it, sitting on it, and then see how you feel about it once the emotion has died down.
Julie Herres (30:12)
Yeah, or like, I think it's a conversation I have with my spouse on a regular basis, right? Like, oh yeah, this would be nice. Like, let's just, let's look, let's think about, let's take a couple of days and see if we're still on the same page. And that, yeah, it can be helpful in a lot of different facets of life.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (30:30)
Yes, absolutely. One of the things I think about is the phrase, it takes money to make money, right? Sometimes in order to make money, you have to spend a little bit of money, right? If you're starting a new business, you might need to spend money on a website or your business cards or something. Sometimes money is necessary for expansion or scaling and also that can be really scary.
Julie Herres (30:57)
Yeah.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (30:58)
And I know that you work with a lot of people who are wanting to scale, wanting to expand their businesses. How do you recommend that people navigate the money part while they're also wanting to expand and grow?
Julie Herres (31:12)
Yeah, that phrase, you got to spend money to make money is a little bit triggering to me because that was one of my mother's favorite phrases. She would say, and when she said that, I knew she was about to buy stuff she could not afford. Okay, so like that's my family of origin story around that phrase. So the reality is, yes, a lot of things that will eventually make you money will have an investment upfront. And in the case of many small businesses, like you personally are providing that cash.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (31:23)
Oh, gotcha.
Julie Herres (31:39)
to start the business to then eventually go make more money. So I like to think of expansion in three separate phases and that is whether it's expanding from like not having a business to having a business or from having five employees to 10 employees, like it applies across the board. So first is the planning phase. This is the phase where you evaluate the options, do some research, run the numbers, like you're just kind of gathering some data here.
to establish viability. So this typically, in many cases, this will be one of the longer phases, right? You're going to just spend some time looking at what is going to make sense. And part of that is looking at, okay, if I start this, let's say I start this business, and I'm gonna need a website, I'm going to need a profile, I will need business cards, whatever it may be, this is what I estimate it will cost.
do you have that money? How will you get that money? What are the things that need to be true for that to be possible? Because it has to come from somewhere. And somewhere might be, I'm gonna get a loan to make this happen, or I'm gonna tap into personal savings. But it can't be just a hope and a prayer and like, let's see what happens, right? Like there has to be some kind of plan. The next phase is the action phase. So phase two, and I talk about this in my book, Prophet Versus Therapist. So in the action phase, this is the three to six.
actually three to 12 month phase where like you were taking action, you've set a budget, so now you have permission to spend based on that budget, but you're doing the things. It's often exhausting, it's often scary. You might not be making any money in this new business or in this growing business, or like you're making less than you were, right? Like things are shifting and almost always in this phase, you're gonna doubt yourself at some point and think like, should I have done this? Was this the right thing to do? And Melissa, I mean, you've grown your business significantly like...
Have you ever felt a doubt as you were growing?
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (33:38)
thinking about that right now because as you know, I just started doing retreats and I have done workshops in Mexico before for mental health providers. And I just started offering retreats again, which is a different audience than I would normally be advertising to. I'm not advertising counseling services and I can't offer this retreat to my counseling clients due to ethics and boundaries.
Julie Herres (33:43)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Sure.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (34:04)
And so I'm doing this thing and I am being reminded that while I love a new idea and I'm an action oriented person, there's that moment of like, oh, this is a little bit more involved than I was anticipating. And you're like, oh, and so I keep reminding myself what everyone says is like the first time around is the hardest push.
Julie Herres (34:19)
Yes.
Yes, yes, no, absolutely. And like that's such a normal thing. And that's why I like to normalize that we're like, pretty much everyone doubts themselves when they're starting a business or growing a business or creating a new stream of income. And if they say they don't, they're probably lying to you. Like there's a moment where they're lying in bed thinking like, should I have done this? But in that action phase can't last forever, right? You can't always be in this like,
nose to the ground, we're working 60 hours a week, we're making all the things happen. I had a client recently who was like, moving into a new space, driving the 28 foot U-Haul. Like you can't do that day in and day out forever and ever, right? So then eventually you move into that phase three, which is the new normal. This is where you stabilize things, where you're getting used to being the owner of a business or the owner of a bigger business or the owner of a successful and financially stable business and you're.
kind of reestablishing like, okay, what are the things that I need to be doing? What can I give to someone else? What are the pieces that work? What don't? What doesn't? And then you may eventually go back into phases one, two and three again, right? Like do multiple cycles of that, but you've usually got like a more stable period in between where you're kind of piling up cash again, saving for what's coming next, and just kind of getting the lay of the land at this new place that you are before you do this all over again.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (35:56)
Yes, and I wrote down the word investment when you said that, right? Because I think that word is really important to remember that whatever you're spending money on, well, asking yourself first, is this an investment or is this, you know, am I just spending money? Right? And knowing that those two are different, right? An investment, there's a desired outcome there. It's not just spending to spend. It's I am investing, investing in myself, investing in my business because there's a particular outcome.
Julie Herres (36:00)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (36:26)
that I'm looking for. And yet, I think sometimes one of the things that I see is people feeling guilty for making an
investment. And I'm wondering if that's something that you see show up and how people can navigate the guilt of either investing in themselves, if they're a solo practitioner or investing in their business.
Julie Herres (36:36)
Sure.
Yeah, an investment that makes sense for someone just starting out or is not necessarily going to be the same investment as something that makes sense for someone who's got a million plus dollar practice, for example. Right? So those might be two different things. So I think sometimes in that startup phase, there's this tendency of like, I need the best thing possible. And that's simply not true. Right? There is a point of...
This doesn't have to be permanent. Like what can be the minimum viable product here? So like get things off the ground and then let's reiterate later, right? You can have another website in a year once you started making money, for example. So there's, I mean, there's that piece but also what folks always think about is the investment of time versus money. So, oh, I'm not gonna spend the money. I feel like it's not worth it.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (37:39)
Hmm
Julie Herres (37:44)
okay, but you're spending a bunch of time on the back end and your time is worth something, especially as a, for everyone, but when you're a business owner, like that time is an hour that you're not selling or that you're not doing something that's revenue generating. So I think that that's always a consideration. And as a business grows, you absolutely should be spending money on things that are going to save you a lot of time because time becomes the resource that you have the least of at that point. So if you can have...
Okay, here's one that drives me nuts is, oh, my credit card processor that's integrated with my scheduling system is 0.2% more expensive than this other solution over here. So I think I'm gonna move over there. That is bananas. It is bananas because guess what? When things are integrated, you are saving a lot of time. You know who has paid you and who hasn't.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (38:38)
Mm-hmm.
Julie Herres (38:40)
You have an accurate accounts receivable list. When you take that completely outside, guess what you're spending, you or someone on your team is spending a lot of time reconciling all those things. That is such that you're spending a dollar in time to save a quarter, and that makes no financial sense.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (38:57)
Yeah, and what you're describing also is how I ended up getting my first bookkeeper. So yeah, I think I told you there was a year I had to give like three different places like financial records for our business and it was like tax season and there were also like a program I was applying to and something else we were doing. And I literally have like all my papers printed out. I have my husband like reading stuff to me.
Julie Herres (39:02)
Yes, yes.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (39:27)
And my partner of all people, you know, is like, so Melissa, imagine how much time you've been spending doing this thing that's creating so much stress for you. And imagine if you had just paid someone, like how much money you would actually be paying someone to do this for you and how much extra free time you've had, you'd have and how little stress you'd, you would have right now. And I was like, yep.
Julie Herres (39:56)
Yeah.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (39:56)
a pretty good point and it was after that I was like yeah we were not doing this again.
Julie Herres (40:01)
Yeah, yeah, that's a really, that's out of necessity, right, came that. And often we'll see something like that where a business owner, a practice owner is like going to get their mortgage refinanced or buy a house for the first time. And the bank is like, what is going on with these financials? Like, what is this DIY homemade? Like they can tell within a couple seconds of like.
This is not normal, something's not right here, I don't know what it is, but something's not right. And then like, oh yeah, maybe there is value to working with someone who actually knows what they're doing.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (40:38)
Yes, yes. And if you could, you know, that person is going to take them less time to get it done than it's going to take you, right? If you don't have a system, you don't know how to make a website or you don't know how to do QuickBooks or whatever it is, someone else who does it on a day-to-day basis can get it done a lot faster than you can. And it might, when you calculate the time and money, it really, really might be worth it. Or the stress.
Julie Herres (40:48)
Yeah. Yes.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (41:03)
Julie Herres (41:03)
Yes, yeah, I feel the same way about employee handbook. Right, like, okay, you're gonna ask on a Facebook group and try to DIY it, and like, that can work maybe for your first employee or two, but like, you probably are better off and much more compliant, like, actually working with someone who knows what they're doing instead of just getting a template online. Like, that could work, but man, are you taking a lot of chances.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (41:20)
Yes.
Yes, yes, so know where it really matters to spend that money
Julie Herres (41:31)
Yes. Yes, yeah. And then from, I mean, I know those feel like expenses, but then you're always getting a return on investment on those things, right? Like having solid policies, the first time you encounter a challenge with an employee, like, oh wait, we could go to the handbook, we do have a policy around that. Ooh, okay, you just saved yourself like thousands of dollars in heartache, right? Or, you know, having a...
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (41:39)
Hmm.
Yes!
Julie Herres (41:58)
professional tax repair. I'm a big advocate. If someone is a business owner, you should not be doing your own taxes because you don't know what you don't know and it's complex. And then you're gonna go to get a loan or something and they're gonna say like, wait, what is happening? These numbers don't line up with what you gave us with your QuickBooks account or something like that. It is worth spending some money in some areas once you reach a certain point in your business. It absolutely always is.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (42:28)
Yes. Well, I love that. And so Julie, if anyone is listening and they are wanting to find you or your services, find out about your book, how can they do that?
Julie Herres (42:40)
Yes, so my book is Profit First for Therapists. You can go to prof We have a ton of resources also available on the website that you'll also find in the book. It's available in audio, Kindle, or ebook, and paperback as well anywhere that books are sold online. And then my accounting firm is Green Oak Accounting. We work with therapists in private practice all over the US and so gree
and we always offer a free consultation to anyone who thinks, who would like to see if we're a good fit for them.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (43:15)
when I am regularly recommending your services and your book, Julie. And I've got to ask you the required question here on the show, which is, what is a big dream that you have?
Julie Herres (43:18)
Thank you. Thank you, thank you.
My big dream business-wise is for every practice to be profitable. So everything we do has that thread within it. I don't know if I will see that in my lifetime, but I'm sure going to try. So that's what I'm working towards over here.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (43:49)
I love it. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Julie. I know that some people are gonna find this episode really helpful.
Julie Herres (43:56)
Thank you so much for having me, Melissa.