S01 Ep18: Enhance Your Expansiveness, Creativity, and Performance with an Approach You Didn’t Even Know Existed with Thad Frye

EntrepreneurshipSelf-ImprovementHealthEducation

Mar 19

Written By Melissa Wesner

When we’re living fully into our purpose and passions, it can feel absolutely incredible! There are times in life, however, when we feel like something is blocking our ability to perform to our fullest potential. In today’s podcast episode with Brainspotting Coach and Consultant, Thad Frye, you’ll get to hear about an approach that can help people access creativity and expansion OR help them work through the blocks that are hindering them personally or professionally. Thad Frye is known for his performance-based coaching with athletes and performers, so you’re in for a treat!
During our conversation, you’ll learn:
• About Brainspotting & performance brainspotting
• Ways that you can use performance brainspotting in your personal or professional life
• Common reasons we experience blocks that interfere with our ability to perform at our fullest potential
Follow Thad Frye:
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/thad-frye-a5b7a223/
Website: www.performancebrainspotting.com
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (00:23)
Welcome to the Dreaming and Doing podcast. I'm here today with Thad Fry, who is a licensed clinical social worker who owns a private practice in Boulder, Colorado, where he utilizes Brainspotting to focus on athletic and creative performance. Thad is a certified Brainspotting consultant and is director of communications and outreach at the Rocky Mountain Brain Spotting Institute, which is a nonprofit. I'm...
Super excited to have Thad here today. As some of you know, I love Brainspotting and I'm really excited to talk about how Brainspotting can be used to help with performance and also help us move towards our dream. So welcome Thad, thanks for joining us.
Thad Frye (01:06)
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited as well. And I've definitely had the, it's been lovely to be able to talk to people that aren't as familiar about Brainspotting and be able to kind of do some education. And, but I love talking to people that also love Brainspotting. So I'm looking forward to talking to you.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (01:26)
Yes, now that is, you know, Brainspotting has been around for over 20 years. And yet, even though there are plenty of people now trained in Brainspotting, there are a lot of people who still have no idea what Brainspotting is. So just to make sure that we're all starting from the same point of reference, would you at least introduce us to what Brainspotting is?
Thad Frye (01:30)
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, definitely. So I often stumble as I'm noticing I'm saying that as I'm doing this, because I'll wear a shirt that says Brainspotting on it. So I'll be out in public and somebody, oftentimes people will look at it and not know what it is and they'll ask me. And with certain people, I say a very short version, but I'll dive in a little deeper here to say.
that Brainspotting is what allows us to work with our midbrain, our mammalian , our limbic in our body. And so instead of just working with our prefrontal cortex, if we think about it from a therapy standpoint, instead of just our thoughts and our thinking , which thank God we have, but this allows us access to that fight, flight or freeze response, memories, emotions, and how we hold things both emotionally and in our bodies and how that goes about.
If we were working on something that was activating, something that we were feeling, something that you were feeling anxious about, you were going to go on a podcast and you were going to do some public speaking, right? So then I would work with somebody to ask them where they're feeling that in their body. If they were able to track that, that's great. If not, I'd help them kind of work towards that. But let's say they feel some butterflies in their stomach.
We would then allow them to find a fixed eye position So there's those that are listening and not seeing just going across their field of vision until either they notice ooh I'm feeling that feeling in my stomach even more or I'm noticing reflexes and those reflexes are telling me that their midbrain that limbic is being Being brought up and we can process from there. So the long and short of it is working with the body and
working with midbrain to help us process those feelings that can be a lot or stuck in that midbrain.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (03:46)
Yes, so for people who are still new to Brainspotting, right, you can be a therapist who's using Brainspotting. There are coaches who do Brainspotting. There are people trained in acupuncture and massage who do Brainspotting. So for us as therapists, a lot of times we're doing Brainspotting to help people work through difficult issues, difficult content, traumatic experiences.
Thad Frye (03:55)
Yes.
Yes.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (04:10)
But we know that Brainspotting can be used for things besides working through difficult circumstances. So one of the areas of specialty that you have is in performance Brainspotting. And some people might be like, well, what exactly does that mean, performance Brainspotting? So if you could tell us what exactly is performance Brainspotting and who are the people who are coming to you and seeking performance Brainspotting services?
Thad Frye (04:16)
Right.
Yeah.
Awesome. In some ways, all Brainspotting is performance based. David Grand, who is the developer of Brainspotting, often talks about that. And that can be looking like our professional roles are parental roles, right? We all have those. And so that can be a performance piece. But more than likely, when I'm utilizing it in a performance space, it is looking at working with athletes. I work with college and
professional athletes. I work with singers, I work with musicians, I work with writers. So looking at those aspects of performance. So that can be, performance could be, let's utilize a musician in this case. Performance obviously can be when they're playing out and they're playing a show. And how do they get themselves to a more relaxed place so that they can actually get in the zone and be able to live out that solo that they've been working on or.
been a little bit nervous about. Or performance can even be in the songwriting process. So that same performer who is the singer and the guitarist might run into blocks around a song that they've been working on. They have a lovely chorus and the melody line is great, but they just can't get to those verses. And they want to be able to, and they know that they've shown a couple of people the song and they just can't quite get there.
So what I do in performance work is both to go back and look at blocks. And so I'll use the athlete in this case would be that I often go back and talk to them about their injury history, their, any surgeries they've had, any sports related embarrassments. So I'll have them write down when they were six years old and the ball went through their legs and they lost the game and their friend looked at them like they were a jerk.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (06:21)
Hmm.
Thad Frye (06:30)
and they can still feel that. So we'll go back to those younger parts of themselves that might be hindering their current performance, things like the yips, performance anxiety, things like that, that come up. And then once we work through those, I always like to work through blocks and those things to get them back to a baseline, that midbrain feeling more regulated. And then we get to do the really cool stuff. So Lisa Larson is one of the...
Brainspotting trainers that you know, and she does a lovely job of expansion Brainspotting. David teaches that in phase four as well, but she took that ball and ran with it beautifully. And so we really get to take whatever part of that song they might be working on, using that, where we get into the character.
of that song. So I might have somebody sing to me and go through a rough draft, like sing the song. I love that part of my job, right? Sing me the song that you're working on, right? And they'll, they'll sing it and it's often wonderful. But if they're stuck somewhere, they feel like they're just not connecting to that. I'll have them tell me more about who the character in the song is. Is that a part of you? Is that somebody that you've noticed in a coffee shop when you were hanging out writing?
Who is that person? Bring them into the room with us. Can you feel that connection in your body? Can you feel that connection to that person that you're writing about? See what it is like after we get to know that and once we feel that, I'm making it up, right? But they feel that connection with that person in their chest. So I'll say, notice that feeling in your chest right now. See if you can find a fixed eye position. That's what Brainspotting is.
and allow yourself to look in the room and maybe feel that connection even stronger to that person that is singing that song is about, and then sing that song to me. What is that like? And not always, but often you can hear it. I can feel it differently for somebody. So that's just one example of being able to take that and expanding on it and being able to work in that performance space.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (08:50)
Yeah, and as you're talking there, these two different things popping into my head, right? Like I'm imagining that whatever thing someone is pursuing, whether it's their professional work, whether it's a sport, whether it's music, and maybe that's in their leisure time, maybe that's something that they're doing professionally, I'm imagining that they're pursuing it because they enjoy it to some degree, right? And yet on one hand, we have these blocks.
Thad Frye (09:12)
Yes, sure. Yes, yes.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (09:17)
which I also imagine create a lot of frustration, right? Like I'm trying to write this book and I have this most annoying writer's block or I am doing a solo and I'm just having a hard time hitting a note or feeling it, right? So we have these frustrating experiences while pursuing something that we really care about, want to do well at. And then I hear on the other hand with performance, it can also be about
Thad Frye (09:24)
Yes.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (09:46)
you know, not just helping people work through the blocks, but really tap into like their highest potential, right? Really singing that song in a connected, authentic way that is felt or really maybe feeling free as they're playing and relaxed while playing a sport.
Thad Frye (09:51)
Yes. Yes.
You got it. You got it. Yep. So you picked up on one of those words that is big in expanding into something, right? Is that what is the largest potential or what is the largest possibility here, right? And we all tend to have at some level a negativity bias. So this is, you know, sometimes I had noticed even when I'm talking with somebody, I'm kind of using lighter language and I'm talking a little bit.
higher in my voice just to bring out what would it be like to let's imagine yourself on that stage, right? So you're gonna be on that stage tomorrow. I want you to feel the reality, right? You might have them close their eyes, might have them notice the guitars next to them, they're walking up, well.
slowly kind of condition them to seeing the audience and what are the sights, smells and sounds. So we can work with the anxiety, as you said, that block and move through that. But then I want you to again, reach into what's the biggest possibility? What's the best thing that can happen? What is it like when you know you're just in that zone and you're connecting with that song, you're connecting with that audience? Where do you feel that?
Where's the connection there? And we work from there. So we can do it right there in the room to have that place. So again, going back to that, you know, here where you did, we moved through, we moved through some of those blocks. The anxiety is not gone, but it's lowered. And now we're working from that place of expansion and my gosh, I'm connected with that song or connected with that audience. Where are you feeling that? I'll just go back to what I said before. I'm feeling it in my chest. Okay.
So tomorrow, when you're getting up on that stage or before you even get up on that stage, I want you to notice that feeling in your chest. It might have changed a little bit and that's okay. But what is that feeling like? I want you to take that possibility with you. You might even be able to find that fixed eye position, which again is just where you are placing your eyes for a time. So that might be five seconds, 30 seconds. Nobody's even gonna notice.
Why is that person looking in that direction? It's for you. So you might go up on stage, sit in front of the microphone, notice that feeling in your chest, have a couple of breaths, look up into your left if that's where your eye position is, and breathe into the possibility that this is gonna be a great night, that you're gonna hit those notes, that you're gonna do those things that you can indeed do, but you're reaching even further into it.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (12:48)
So as you're describing that, I'm wondering the people that you've worked at who are able to tap into that expansiveness, really like soaking up the moment, enjoying and loving what they're doing and feeling like I'm really standing into the fullness of what it is that I'm wanting to do. What are some of the things that you've seen in the people you work with when they're in that space?
Thad Frye (13:04)
Yes.
Gosh, so oftentimes I'm not there to bear witness, but I'll tell you what they share with me is I've heard anything from it feels like me. Like this is what I'm supposed to do that some of those other roles that we were talking about are there as well. But this is the purity of who I am and how I express myself in this world. And so if I can help somebody,
Express who they are at their core. That's a huge part. I've had people talk about how Breaking through those anxieties and showing up for themselves that alone was the the highest mark even though they enjoyed what they were doing Noticing that they could actually get up on that stage and do what they needed to do and build community around those things and to have connections in that way so having any of those things where
they come back later and say, I did it, I can do it. Maybe I want to do this more. I've had people that have left jobs to pursue different things. And, and obviously we talk about all of the other pieces that go on in one's life and making sure that they can do that. But that's part of what your podcast is about is dreaming and then doing right. And so if we can move some of those blocks and get them.
to experience what it is to actually engage with what they're all about, then they get to decide really if they wanna do it. So that's my goal is to really, again, allow them to experience it and then make their choice from there about whether this is a lovely thing to do as a hobby or if this is something they wanna pursue more fully.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (15:02)
Yes, and you and I both know that Brainspotting can be really, really powerful work, right? And there are still so many people who don't even know that this is available. They don't know that this is accessible, which is part of why we're talking about it. So people know and can take advantage of something that could be incredibly beneficial for them, whether they're doing Brainspotting for something like trauma or whether it is something for expansion or to help them in their professional work.
Thad Frye (15:08)
Yes.
this.
Yes.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (15:32)
So we have one, people who might be coming in, because they're like, there's this block that I'm bumping up against, right? Every time I go to shoot the basketball in the game, this thing happens, or for some reason, I'm having a hard time tapping into my role as a performer. But then, you know, people also doing that expansion work. And I'm wondering, even though I think still a lot of people don't know about Brainspotting, are you finding that you have...
Thad Frye (15:37)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (15:58)
Like what brings people in? Are they coming in for the block or are they coming in because they're like, I heard about this expansion thing and I'm ready for it.
Thad Frye (16:05)
That's a great question. I've had people often come in for the block. And one of the things that I love, and this happens with athletes a lot, and sometimes with writers, is that somebody has heard me on a podcast or they've heard about me some other way or heard about Brainspotting. And I love that through our shared work, we can help people not only...
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (16:09)
Mm -hmm.
Thad Frye (16:33)
Address but then work through things that they don't want to share with other people the the in the sports world the yips that all of a sudden they you know baseball players as a pitcher has thrown the ball a million times he knows how to do it if they're in college or the pros they are the top, you know 1 % in they they know what they're doing so all of a sudden to not have that ability or to have that ability change quite a bit.
can be devastating. And so people don't like to talk about it. People are often ashamed by it. People try to either try harder or people call them names like a headcase or whatnot. And so when people reach out to me because their loved one heard a podcast or whatnot, they're not usually coming in going, great, I've heard all about this. I know it's going to work perfect, right? They're kind of saying,
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (17:14)
Hmm.
Thad Frye (17:26)
I've tried all of the other things and just the cognitive pieces haven't worked. They've helped, but I notice I'm still having this block or I'm still having the yips. And so I love that, again, the work that we do in Brainspotting allows them to work with that mid part of that , the fight, flight or freeze, the way that the body is holding onto these things through injuries or surgeries or shame, and we're able to move through it. So often the very long answer to your question is,
It's often coming from the blocks and I'm happy to do that. And I'm happy for that to be a majority of the work that I do. But I love doing the expansion side. Once we've worked through those things so that they can get back to who they were before, then let's expand on that. Let's make it bigger. Let's say what is underneath that? What was the kid that was dreaming about it? You're, you're there. You're in the big leagues or you're, you know, you're playing in college.
How do we have fun again? How do you feel loose? How do you authentically feel loose, right, in your body? How can we work towards that goal?
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (18:33)
Yeah, and I'm just thinking about, well, one, I'm sure your clients are like, yeah, we love the expansion too. That's been great, right? That's great to see and feel both for you when you're the one, you know, helping someone with Brainspotting and when you're on the receiving end of it. But as you're talking, I'm also thinking about how kind of many levels the impact is when someone is experiencing a struggle or a block, right? Like on one hand, we're talking about the block can show up in your actual physical body.
Thad Frye (18:39)
Sure, yes, yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (19:03)
It's showing up in behavior as in performance. But I'm also imagining, like you were saying, if someone has been excelling previously at pitching a ball and suddenly you're not able to, that I imagine you would be getting up in your head for a minute, right? Really questioning yourself, even though you know you have this history of performing really well. I imagine that there's also this, like emotional or psychological toll that happens when you're not able to perform like you were before.
Thad Frye (19:06)
Yes.
Absolutely.
Right, absolutely. And what that tends to be is we've been talking about playing loose. That's called playing tight. And so if I'm worried, then I'm getting into that fight, flight or freeze. I'm probably getting into a fight or flight response. And so I'm getting up there in my sympathetic nervous system. And so how can you be, you know, taking that good breath and noticing that and being
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (19:40)
Hmm.
Thad Frye (20:00)
you know, being aware of where you are and how you're playing and the grass underneath your feet. If you're heightened and you're feeling like, oh, I have to do this correctly because I'm going to get cut or this is the year that I'm up for my next contract or any of those, or I'm playing on my JV, uh, high school team. And I really wanted my, I, it was my goal, but also my parents to have me.
make varsity and I was doing good and all of a sudden I'm not and so I must be going crazy or there must be something wrong with me and nobody's telling me that this can be a normal thing that we can actually work through. They're saying just try harder. It's right. It's self blaming and we're often getting blamed by other people because they don't know how to help us and that's understandable but that doesn't make it loose. That doesn't allow us to kind of open up. It restricts us.
And so any work that we can do to allow themselves to normalize it and then go into it, process it and work it through, then we can get you back to that player that you were before.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (21:10)
Yeah, so just to kind of recap the things that I'm hearing you say, right? What I'm hearing you say is some of the things that can contribute to experiencing a personal or professional block, right? Resulting in a performance issue could be if we're talking about maybe sports, it could be an injury from the past, a surgery. It could be an incident from the past, maybe one that was embarrassing or just one that was unpleasant, showing up and impacting performance.
Thad Frye (21:14)
Please.
Yes. Yep.
Yes.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (21:41)
And I also hear you referencing whether someone is loose or tight or relaxed, right? And how that impacts performance and whether or not there's a block or just impacting performance. Talk with us a little bit about the role of loose versus tight or relaxed versus not and how that shows up and influences this picture.
Thad Frye (21:47)
Ah, yes. Yes.
Sure. Sure.
Yeah. So, uh, one of the key terms that comes up a lot is muscle guarding. And so muscle guarding, a good example would be when people are at the start line of a race, they are in a braced position. They are half firing with their muscles, right? They're ready. They know that as soon as the gun goes off, they'll be running. So they're in that already protective kind of engaged.
thing, which is very adaptive when you're sitting there at the beginning of race. That's what you should do. That's what they're trained to do. If you're sitting on the mound and you're not even noticing it because it's become second nature that you are holding your shoulders in a certain position that is engaged because you've been hit by a pitch in the past. And now your midbrain, even though you've quote unquote gotten over it or the
PTs or your docs say, you know, the chances of it happening again are slip to none You're gonna be fine as you're hurling your body forward and letting go of that pitch Your midbrain is saying I don't want that to happen. I'm being self -protective So I'm going to actually pull up a little bit before you let go of the ball because I'm trying to again I can't stop you from doing it, but I can definitely influence how much we are putting ourselves at risk and so again that muscle guarding that
can be a contraction and that is not going to allow you again, obviously to get to the zone and get to be the, that loose player that feels like time is just on their side and everything's going right. It's going to get us already in that bodily position. And then our cognitive awareness is going to say something's wrong. I need to be aware of a threat. There's a threat somewhere here. Right. And so then we get,
caught in, I need to make this more loose. Well, how easy is it to cognitively make yourself loose? You might move your body around, you might try to take some breaths, that can help. But it really is working with that mid part of the that's saying there's something wrong here or I need to be ready for flight, flight or freeze. So we need to work with that part of the and not the cognitive piece as much and helping somebody get loose.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (24:28)
Yeah, so what I'm hearing is it's your body's way sometimes of trying to protect you, even though the way that your body is trying to protect you is absolutely obnoxious.
Thad Frye (24:33)
Yes.
Yeah, worse words could be used but obnoxious would definitely be one of them. Yes. Yes for sure It's frustrating to no end and can like it can ruin a dream I mean, there's plenty of people that have worked their butts off to get you know again I've worked with weekend warriors, but I work with plenty of elite athletes or singers people have worked damn hard and put in many hours and have had to put other parts of their life on hold or
not be as involved in things that they also care about to be at this point and for all of a sudden for their quote unquote body or their to be sabotaging them. It can feel really, really bad. And so again, if we can assist them in making them note, normalize it and work it through more than likely we can get them back to a place where they can actually again,
make a choice about what they want to do, and then we can expand as we talked about.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (25:39)
Yeah, and I'm thinking about people that I work with who come in for trauma sometimes, right? They come in saying my body's broken, because their body is doing something really weird and they're like, it's annoying, it's obnoxious, it wasn't doing this before. And working with people to understand that your body is, yes, doing something that feels really weird and you don't like it and it's not something that they were doing before. And...
Thad Frye (25:46)
Ah.
Yeah.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (26:05)
your body is just trying to get your attention, trying to get your attention around some things. And so I'm thinking about the same thing as you're talking about. You want to perform well. Your body's also trying to protect you. So your body's doing what it's doing for a reason. And how do we get our desire, like our desire, our desire isn't for our body to like choke up in a really important moment. So how do we align our desire with our body? And how do we get on the same page?
Thad Frye (26:18)
Yes. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, again, it's the million dollar question, but one that could be answered by going into the curiosity of the mid in the body, right? Is because of the nature of our prefrontal cortex, our thinking , our human . I'll speak for myself before I did this type of therapy. And before I studied up on it a lot, I kind of thought I was just a that was floating around.
In this body and that I was kind of just walking around as a big And now I understand how much more how much my body holds things and how much that emotional again and fight flight or freeze response Influence because it fires quicker our body and our midbrain fire quicker. So they influence our thought patterns So if we can have a opportunity to do either a coaching or therapy
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (27:12)
Mm -hmm.
Thad Frye (27:30)
like Brainspotting that brings that midbrain and body into it and lets them speak, lets them express themselves, let them move through these processes and lets our prefrontal cortex kind of take a break. I often tell people, you know, imagine taking your prefrontal cortex off for a half hour and setting it next to you on the couch. Let's just let that other parts of you speak right now or what do they need to say?
And sometimes we understand the language that comes about. Other times we don't, and that's okay. We don't need to always interpret it. Just notice that you feel different, that you might feel more regulated after we're done. That's what we're working on.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (28:14)
Yes. Now, sometimes in the Brainspotting world or people who are new to Brainspotting or I don't know, we're just checking it out. Sometimes people are a little skeptical or they're like, hey, I've heard what you've said. I still don't understand it. For you, when you're doing performance work and people are coming in and maybe they're a little skeptical, they're like, I've tried everything or maybe they're listening to this and they're like,
Thad Frye (28:18)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yep. Yep.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (28:39)
I've tried everything. I've seen this person, done this thing, done that. I've done all the things and it's still not working, still not helping. How would you respond to someone who's being, or responding skeptically thinking like, how in the world could this possibly help? I've done all the things.
Thad Frye (28:51)
Yeah.
Totally. I love that question. So I would start with just saying, I totally understand normalizing it. I, when I got, I didn't understand a lot about Brainspotting before I got my first training. I watched the first demo. I listened to the information about it. I thought it sounded interesting.
And I get to make fun of myself because I'm from Boulder, Colorado. I thought maybe it was some Boulder, Colorado weird stuff That you were looking you were noticing a feeling in your body You were looking at the end of this pointer that was allowing you to have a fixed eye position and people were having these big emotions or they were working through things that they Thought they had to work through cognitively before believe me my skeptic was right there
So much so that I even had a big experience, big somatic experience in my body. I didn't think I would. I was thinking this wasn't going to work for me. And I noticed all these things happened for me. Numbness came over the right side of my body. I second guessed it. I came home. I told my wife, right? I don't know about this stuff. And then the next day I raised my hand. Dr. Pye Fry was the instructor. I said, Pye, I don't know if I...
I had this experience, but I don't know if I even think this is real. And it took me a lot to say that there's a small class. I, a lot of them were EMDR therapists and she was lovely. She said, let's just stick with it for the next two days. Have the experiences that you do be open and curious to it. And then you can decide when you're done on Sunday, whether this is something you want to carry forward. So sometimes I'll tell my clients a version of that story, my own skepticism, my own.
You know what, what it was like for me, how I almost, uh, acted like I was having an experience because I didn't want to ruin the other therapist experience while they were training. Right. So I'll give them that and say, once I allowed myself to notice I've had that anxiety and I just wanted to notice how it felt. And I really was going to sign up for that curiosity. Okay. I'm here. I'm looking at a pointer. I'm listening to some bilateral sounds. It's.
Okay, we'll see what happens. That's what allowed me to start to enter in. It's not for everybody, but most people are going to have that opportunity to really start to feel it and then start to process. So again, I usually use some version of my story or sometimes some of my clients' stories. And yeah, I say skepticism is great. Please have that. And then I finish with, but let's try it because...
I can talk to you all I want to. It's experiential. So let's have the experience.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (31:39)
Yes, I love that last statement because that's one of the things that I think about when we have people who have a lot of questions, they have a bazillion questions. And on one hand, yes, like you want to provide information, you want people to feel like they're giving informed consent before entering into trying something new. And also there's a point where our skepticism, I think, can prevent us from having an experience, right? So yes, here's the information.
Thad Frye (31:52)
Yes.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (32:04)
And also we can keep talking about it and keep talking about it and keep talking about it. Or now that we've talked about it, we can give it a try and we can just gauge from there and see how it goes.
Thad Frye (32:09)
Yeah.
Absolutely, I love that too, right? It's saying, let's talk about it enough that you feel like you have a basic gist. Obviously, I will answer any questions as we're going through.
I can give you my lived experience. I can give you what might happen, right? I definitely give, I do a lot of, we call it front loading, right? Giving a lot of psycho education. Sometimes that means I give a whole session, right? We talk about it. I might have them just notice if we were to do Brainspotting today and you're talking about your anxiety about your upcoming concert, where are you feeling that right now, right? We're not finding a fixed eye position. We're not listening to bilateral music. We're not processing on it.
But let's have you notice if you do feel things in your body and you either know that or not. Right. So we can take it slowly. I give people homework between sessions sometimes to do a body scans and see what they feel like in the morning, see what they feel like in the evening. Right. And just do a five minute body scan. See where you're holding tension. See where you're feeling more loose in your body. Start allowing them to bring that somatic piece into their awareness. And like you said, then.
Let's stop talking and let's allow yourself to be curious, right? I always tell people you can't be laser focused curious, right? So let's be wide open to the process as much as you can be. And then we'll see what happens. And I, right. And we'll go from there.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (33:43)
Yeah, one of the things that I often think about is what's the worst thing that could happen? Worst thing that could happen is you tried something new.
Thad Frye (33:47)
Ah, yes, yes.
Yep, yep, exactly. And I have one or two folks that are lovely and we do awesome work and they'll every six months they'll say, let's try that weird thing where I look at the stick, right? And it might not work for them and that's okay. Again, I tell them it might not be this time that you're ready to go there. So let's keep it on the menu. Let's keep it as a potential.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (34:11)
Mm -hmm.
Thad Frye (34:18)
but let's not totally get rid of it. Let's say at least knowing that it's there so that when you become more aware of your body or when you become more aware of your emotional self, we might bring it out again. That might be the time or it might be even me as a provider. I might not be the right person for you to feel like you can dive into that deeper part of yourself. And that's okay. I'm a -okay.
with referring out if they feel like that would be a better fit for somebody else.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (34:49)
Yeah, and the thing that I'm thinking about as you're talking about that is how performance issues can show up even with Brainspotting, right? If, you know, in exactly what you're describing, someone who maybe didn't have an experience and they're not ready to go there yet, is guardedness, is there guardedness showing up? Is there a protectiveness from their body showing up? You know, we hear people say, am I doing it right? Am I doing it right?
Thad Frye (34:56)
Yes, yes, yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes. Yep. Yes. Yes.
Absolutely.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (35:15)
And so as we're talking about performance Brainspotting, I'm also thinking about how performance issues can show up in the room when you're trying Brainspotting on whatever topic.
Thad Frye (35:21)
Yep. You got it.
I couldn't say it better. I'll just reiterate what you said. It's like bringing its meta, right? It's bringing that experience into the room right there that they're feeling like they need to perform. So whatever, you know, part of themselves or a younger way that they associate, they might feel like, well, I need to, I need to people, please, I need to make that feel okay, that he's told me all about this. He's excited about it.
So surely I need to have an experience. And so maybe I'm going to lie and maybe I'm going to say, yeah, I'm feeling it. And then I leave that day and I didn't, hopefully I have a relationship enough with them to be able to say, Hey, I'm not sure I like it or I'm not sure it works for me. Or I didn't give it a chance because I felt like I was doing it wrong. Right. So I think a lot of the therapy, if we're looking at it from a therapy standpoint can happen just by that.
performance piece and saying, oh, interesting. What did you notice about that part of you that felt like it needed to perform? Does that feel like something that's often with you? Is that something that's with you in other life circumstances? And so you can start to normalize, work with, hopefully allow that person to be able to go into and work with that piece of themselves.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (36:45)
Yes. Now you do Brainspotting as a therapist. You also do Brainspotting as a coach, which kind of opens up some opportunities for people who might be listening, who are like, but I'm not in Colorado and I know I would have to be there if, you know, for therapy, but with coaching, we, you know, that's a little bit more open. So for people who are interested in learning more about you and your services, how can they find you?
Thad Frye (36:54)
Yes. Yep.
this.
Yeah.
Yeah. Thank you very much. Yeah. So I work with people all across the United States, as you said, athletes, uh, work with musicians, uh, some actors, some writers. So, uh, performance Brainspotting .com. So, uh, all collectively together, performance Brainspotting .com is a great place to be able to contact me.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (37:33)
And of course I have to ask you, what is a big dream that you have?
Thad Frye (37:38)
I've listened to your podcast so I knew you're gonna ask me that and I didn't want to prepare so I'm just gonna meet you here in this moment and say there are two things that I'm looking at so professionally it's just to do exactly what we're doing here is to really lean into this performance side I love my work that I do with my clients as a psychotherapist but I
like to have that balance of being able to help bring those things forward for other people. So that's definitely more of the professional. And on the personal, I'm a musician of sorts. And so I haven't played out live in ages. I've been in different bands and played with lovely people in the past. And I've had opportunities lately and I've put a block in front of myself. So I've been doing more of my own Brainspotting work and I'm...
I'm pretty ready. So I definitely want to, if the opportunity presents itself or if I can make the opportunity present itself, I'd love to perform live sometime in the next year.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (38:46)
Love that. Well, thank you so much for joining with us and sharing about Brainspotting and not just Brainspotting, but sharing about performance Brainspotting and also how we can use it to feel more expansive in our work.
Thad Frye (38:50)
Yeah.
I really appreciate this opportunity to talk to you and talk to your audience. So thank you very much.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (39:05)
Thank you.