S02 Ep07: Make Important Changes in Your Life by Understanding the Stages of Change with Christine Higgins
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Have you ever felt defeated while trying to achieve your goals? Perhaps you've even determined that making a particular change just isn't in the books for you. Perhaps you've tried to get into an exercise routine, stop biting your nails, or reduce your alcohol intake, and you just haven't had any luck. Today, we've got good news for you!
In this week's episode, Christine Higgins will be introducing you to the stages of behavior change. Understanding them can take out some of the shame that people feel when they fail to successfully make a change. It can also help us understand some of the steps we can take to increase the likelihood of success when we're trying to make a change.
As we approach the end of the year, we hope you'll find this helpful if you're feeling eager to achieve the goals you've set for this year. If you're thinking ahead to the new year, this episode will be great for you too!
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Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (00:01.557)
Welcome back to the Dreaming and Doing Podcast. I'm here today with Christine Higgins who I have known for so many years now. Christine Higgins is a subject matter expert by SAMHSA in motivational interviewing and the stages of change are closely related to this subject matter and that's going to be the topic for our episode today. Christine Higgins is available to train staff and counselors who are helping others with change and various health concerns.
especially chronic conditions, substance use disorders, chronic diseases like diabetes, and COPD. Welcome, Christine!
Christine Higgins (00:39.598)
Hey Melissa, how are you?
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (00:41.827)
I'm good. I'm really excited to have you on here today because one, you were my trainer many, many years ago when I first entered the field and you did my training in motivational interviewing, motivational incentives. And I am imagining that there are probably a good number of people who don't know about stages of change, but it is really helpful because one, many of us have behaviors that we want
Christine Higgins (00:56.631)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (01:05.758)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (01:11.275)
to change, have goals, we have dreams that we want to achieve, maybe we felt like it's really hard. And I think that if people understand the stages of change, it can be really helpful in all of those areas.
Christine Higgins (01:25.325)
I agree. It's a nice framework to kind of track your own progress in a way.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (01:32.947)
Yes, so right now we are recording at the end of September. Like this is a time where people are reflecting on goals that they've set at the beginning of the year to say, have I achieved that goal? Have I not? Is there still time for me to do that thing? But also as we get closer to the end of the year, people are starting to think about what are my new goals? What are the goals that I have for the year ahead? So talk with us if you would about what
Christine Higgins (01:48.716)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (02:01.367)
are the stages of change for anyone who has never ever heard of this before.
Christine Higgins (02:06.133)
Sure. So the stages of change is what we call a trans theoretical model, which simply means that it's over other models that you might use like motivational interviewing or CBT. it's so it's, it's a, you know, it's a basis for how people change and it, doesn't really matter whether it's something simple like, I don't want to be a nail biter anymore or something serious. Like I want to change.
you know, my diet or my level of exercise because I've been diagnosed with something. It basically is the same. And I like to think of it as a cycle. So if you're with us today, just picture that we're looking at something that goes round and round and potentially. they'll say, for example, if you're thinking about quitting smoking, that it might take you up to seven to nine times.
going around the circle and trying again and again. So you bring up end of the year and we're thinking about what did I accomplish? And we're also might be thinking about what's to come, what would I like to do? So first thing to think about, and keep it away from New Year's resolution. And if I don't succeed on January 2nd, I'm a failure.
We just try again.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (03:35.381)
Yeah. So on that note, Christine, you know, I think when we have tried to set a goal or we have tried to pursue a dream or make a change, we were talking before we started recording about maybe I want to give something up. I want to stop the biting my nails. I want to stop smoking. And when we don't achieve that, we do feel bad, like a failure. Maybe that's not for me.
Christine Higgins (03:53.64)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (04:00.284)
Okay.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (04:01.835)
And I think this idea about the stages of change offers a different way of thinking about what we might quote unquote call failure.
Christine Higgins (04:11.374)
Exactly. So we start with pre -contemplation and that stage is marked by someone not thinking about making a change, not interested in making a change. So a lot of times we have families who have, you know, members of the family have addictions and we think what's wrong? Why can't they see, you know, this isn't healthy, this is dangerous, the person's at risk for all sorts of things. But the person, the individual is in pre -contemplation.
not thinking about making a change, and may even sort of brain -wise not even ready to contemplate doing something different. So that's the first stage. The next stage is contemplation. And contemplation can be marked sometimes by an event. So let's say, for example, you have a certain habit that's detrimental to your health, and you end up in the hospital.
let's say someone who has an alcohol use disorder falls down the stairs. So then they start thinking, maybe there is a problem or someone threatens to leave them. Maybe, maybe there is a problem or just, you know, we think about things like weight loss, pants being too tight. think maybe I would like to lose some weight. So a lot of times something introduces you. I'll talk with folks and some, and sometimes they'll say, just decided.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (05:26.838)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (05:37.69)
so that there wasn't some event. But it can be marked by an event, something that someone says to you, have you ever thought about this? So that's a good stage to be in. And it's kind of, if you think of a teetering that we might go back and forth, well, I want to do it, but I don't know if it's worth it. I want it to be worth it. I want it to have a good outcome. I want to be better off than I am now. And then the next stage is planning. And planning to me is
the magical stage, the difficult stage, the all -important stage, because for starters, you have to have a plan. It's a little difficult to just say, well, I'm going to own a home in, you know, next year, right? Or I'm going to change a job where I increase my salary and then leave it at that. Well, how are you going to get there? So the plan is all -important to have some
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (06:33.419)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (06:37.581)
imagination of step one, I start researching the housing market. Step two, I ask people who are homeowners, right? So just kind of thinking of what are some ways to get there and to, you know, to really engage others. This is my goal. How did you get there? That kind of thing. And then, and the planning, you know,
Sometimes people say, I'm just, you know, they make it kind of, you know, like I'm never gonna smoke again, right? Not, I'm gonna reduce the amount of cigarettes I smoke from 14 to seven, right? So that plan sounds a little bit more manageable to me, right? And so, or someone saying, you know, I'm never gonna do this again. I'm never gonna drink again. Instead, what's a plan? Maybe something that belongs in that
plan is support like AA. And so that's a really, and it's to me, it's exciting. Because even though it's difficult, it really means you're on your way. You know, you got some, you got some energy in and speed up, you know, and then we have action and action means we start putting into place some of the things that we, that we wanted to achieve.
So maybe action is I do a budget to see if I can afford whatever it is. Action might be I travel to, if we're talking about buying a home, I travel to different neighborhoods to see what the neighborhoods are like that I'm unfamiliar with. If it's something like going to the gym, maybe I'm marking a calendar. Okay, so I did it three times, four times this week.
And then we can increase. can say, okay, look, what would happen if I tried to do it five times a week? And we might see some roadblocks. So it's somewhat of a trial and error period. And then the next phase is maintenance, which means we got it, we know what we're doing, and we do it consistently. So I use the example of when I was younger, I joined Weight Watchers.
Christine Higgins (09:01.898)
So Weight Watchers has a structure, know, ideally you go once a week, you change your eating habits. So that would be maintenance. I'm living that way. I've chosen that. And I often say to people who are considering making a change, it's a good idea to remind yourself, this is important to me. So that when sometimes those barriers come along or those urges come along, you tell yourself,
this goal is important to me, rather than I have no power over it. And then the next stage, so that's maintenance, which can go on for years. I'm in maintenance, I'm always thinking about this goal and how I wanna achieve it. Maybe if it's something that you have achieved, you'd look for what's the next thing you'd like to do. And then the phase that's,
a little bit difficult for most people is, so the stages of change were created by Dr. Protasca and Dr. DiClemente. Dr. DiClemente is Professor Emeritus at the University of Maryland. And so he and Dr. Protasca developed these stages. The last stage was called relapse, but I'd say, I don't know.
Several years ago, Dr. DiClemente decided to rename it to recurrence because relapse also sounds like failure. I wanted this goal, I wanted to achieve it, and I didn't achieve it. So it's defeating. And it can be recurrence, recurrence of the original maybe behavior.
that got me here. So for example, if somebody is diabetic and they're looking to control their blood sugar and they go out and party and have some champagne and cake, they may have a recurrence of their high blood sugar. And I think that's a good way to look at it. I have a recurrence. I don't have to be perfect in my behavior. I can recognize
Christine Higgins (11:28.542)
That's a recurrence and I forgot that maintaining my low blood sugar was important to me. And you get back up on the horse, so to speak.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (11:40.309)
Yeah, so just to recap, I'm hearing there are a few stages to the stage of change. Pre -contemplation, contemplation, preparation and planning, action, maintenance, recurrence.
Christine Higgins (11:47.348)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (11:54.708)
Yes, excellent.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (11:56.705)
So let's kind of walk through that, right? I want this to be really practical for people who might be working on specific behaviors. So I've been sitting here thinking about what are some of the most common changes I hear people talking about, right? Like I often hear people, especially young working professionals and even other working professionals who realize that maybe their drinking has become a bit much or is resulting in consequences they don't like. That's one I hear from a lot of professionals.
Christine Higgins (12:02.58)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (12:10.26)
Yes.
Christine Higgins (12:18.464)
Mm -hmm, mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (12:25.353)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (12:26.167)
So, you know, exercise, I wanna go to the gym, I wanna eat better, or even sleep hygiene. I wanna get into a better sleep routine. Is there anyone that you're like, let's go with that one, Christine?
Christine Higgins (12:29.245)
I'm hungry.
Christine Higgins (12:33.332)
You sure?
Christine Higgins (12:41.76)
Well, maybe the alcohol one because I think you've picked an interesting age range. So some people may have, they're graduating from college and college may have been a time of partying and having fun and going out and socializing. And then we enter the workforce and we think not so easy, right? Get up in the morning, want to call in sick.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (12:51.667)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (13:00.448)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (13:06.112)
or get up in the morning not feeling the energy we'd like. So I think that's maybe a good one to kind of look at the stages. So you can imagine pre -contemplation. I'm not really thinking about making a change. I'm, you know, for some people it's just a, it's a social activity. A lot of things, lot of activities when you think about it are centered around alcohol, right? Beer crawls and it, you know, can be connected with exercise.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (13:33.099)
Mm -hmm.
Happy hours.
Christine Higgins (13:36.058)
I'm doing okay, happy hours, exactly. So, -contemplation, I don't have a problem, right? And then contemplation might be a DUI. You know how I talked about sometimes something pushes you into maybe there's a problem or a failed relationship or just health -wise thinking I can't quite keep this up.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (14:00.203)
Yeah. And one that I hear about quite a bit or have over the years is I've blacked out and I've blacked out. I don't remember anything that happened. I don't, or I said something I regret. did something I regret. My friends had to babysit me. I can't keep doing that.
Christine Higgins (14:06.311)
Exactly.
And yes, exactly.
Exactly. Yeah, some scary things that make you consider a change. So we have pre -contemplation, contemplation, and then we have preparation and planning. So preparation planning, what are the steps I will take? And I've seen lots of folks do things like, well, I'm only going to party this particular night. I'm going to party on Saturday, drink on Saturday, but then I'm going to have Sunday to kind of recover.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (14:22.571)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (14:45.888)
So that's one idea. Or, you know, saying to friends, maybe, listen, I've sort of gotten out of control. Can we go somewhere for a non -alcoholic brunch? Right? Just trying to enlist other people's help. And you're probably not alone in wanting to maybe change that behavior. So what's another idea you can think of if you want to?
Well, I mentioned AA, so if it seems really serious and you need a support group and you think this is beyond just a behavior where I sometimes lose my control, then it's time to look for professional help and also to look for support. And you join with others who are struggling in the same way.
Let's see, another planning might be, I shouldn't hang out with so -and -so. Every time I hang out with so -and -so, this is what happens, right? So you start thinking, what would be helpful to me? What would be a support as I want to make this change? You could also still do the calendar thing, kind of tracking. So what is really going on, right? And it could be, like I said,
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (15:52.951)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (16:14.588)
recognizing a behavior every time I go out with this person, it gets out of control. That person maybe has a strong influence over you. And looking to say, maybe we should go ice skating, a roller skating, thinking of a new behavior, something that is also gratifying.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (16:30.728)
Mm -hmm. Yeah
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (16:38.007)
I think that's a big one. That's a big one that I hear about. People say, well, there's not anything else to do in the area besides go to the bar. Like we're in a city of like 660 ,000 people and people are like, no, but there's nothing else to do.
Christine Higgins (16:43.08)
Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Higgins (16:47.594)
Yes.
Yes, because it's just a behavior and it's a behavior we're comfortable with in some ways. And we wonder, so this is also a big part of change. Will I be better off if I make this change? So people's fears might be no one's going to want to hang with me or everyone's going to go to the bar except me. I'm going to lose my friends. I'm going to lose my fun personality. You know, these might be things that you think, well, that's going to be a drag.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (17:10.677)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (17:19.934)
right? If I'm sitting home Saturday night because I'm choosing not to drink alcohol, right? So you've got you've got to look for some supports. And and it yeah, it might be if I wasn't drinking, what would I be doing? You know, that kind of idea. And maybe it is a bike ride, you know, a museum, you start you start to branch out because it's true, we don't want to just cut a big hole in our lives like that's gone.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (17:48.897)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (17:49.972)
That's where preparation and planning comes in. What am I going to use or do that's equally satisfying? It may not be the first time, second time, but you'll get to it. You'll get to it.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (18:05.911)
So let's say I have an amazing plan. like, I know what I need. I cannot hang out with Andrew. Cannot be hanging out with Andrew. He is not a great influence in my life. People have been telling me about Andrew for years, right? I know that Friday nights are when I tend to go out. So I have my new plan of what else I'm going to do.
Christine Higgins (18:11.306)
Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Higgins (18:19.675)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yes.
Christine Higgins (18:25.322)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (18:29.214)
Yes.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (18:29.921)
have my plan and because I'm not gonna be hung over on Saturday morning, I also have a plan maybe for Saturday morning. Gonna go for a hike or I'm gonna go for coffee somewhere. Nice. I have my supports. I've told people in my life what I'm doing so they can support me. I've lined things up, done some reading on the topic. What happens after that?
Christine Higgins (18:36.276)
Yes.
Yes. Yes.
Christine Higgins (18:47.339)
Yes.
Christine Higgins (18:52.544)
So after that is action, you start trying those things out. You might say, well, that was a drag. I don't want to do that again. It was so boring. Whatever. Or you see some things that you think, that was kind of fun. And I actually felt better today. I felt like I had more energy. You start to see the pros and cons of changing your behavior. And you take note of them. And if something's not working, sometimes we
same kind of teetering thing, we go back, we might go back to pre -contemplation. We might say, you know what, I just can't do it, this isn't for me. Or we might say, that was a stupid dream, I'm just giving up, right? That's okay, that's okay, we can go around that circle again. And maybe something else will happen, maybe we'll meet someone who doesn't drink, right? And then all of a sudden, wow, this is much easier. So.
We might go back there, but often I say, look at the plan. Where did you go with the plan that didn't quite work out? So I've worked with, you mentioned COPD. I've worked with nurses who are helping those who have COPD. And in that group, a man will say, I heard this nurse told me, a man said to her, well, you know,
with COPD, to have a low salt diet. And he said to her, I'm not giving up my crabs and beer on the 4th of July. I'm not doing it. And she thinks, wow, like that's, that's going to, you may end up in the hospital. That's, but people have very strong connections. So for example, if you think about it in terms of maybe, you know,
It's all of a sudden, it's somebody's birthday and we're out and everyone's having champagne and a toast and we do too, right? Or the sort of typical thing with alcohol, right? You go to a wedding and everyone there, it seems, everyone there is drinking. And how do I go and be a non -drinker? You know, so there's challenges, there's definite challenges. And what do we need? We need a plan. We need an accountability partner who says now,
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (21:04.065)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (21:13.536)
You you said you were gonna run. Maybe you should think about how this is gonna affect your Saturday morning run, right? Someone who's there, not critical, not judgmental, but supportive.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (21:26.262)
Yeah.
Christine Higgins (21:27.178)
And, you know, as I say, you know, the term recurrence to me is valuable because I had a recurrence of my original behavior. It's not the end of the game. We still have some innings to go.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (21:50.037)
Yeah. Well, and I'd like to go back to this planning idea for a minute. You know, I think when I'm so, you know, I'm a counselor, you know, so we do treatment planning, which is just a fancy way of saying we help people set goals and we try to make sure that we're helping people set smart goals. They're specific. They are measurable. They are action oriented. They're realistic and that we have some type of time orientation to those goals.
Christine Higgins (21:54.564)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (22:01.39)
Mm -hmm
Christine Higgins (22:05.125)
Yes.
Christine Higgins (22:10.602)
Thank you.
Christine Higgins (22:18.928)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (22:19.619)
and also a lot of times people are setting goals at the beginning of a new year. And I find that sometimes people are like, okay, here's my goal. I want to start exercising. I want to start eating healthy. That's my goal. Boom. And you know, sometimes they, they want to jump into action, right? They, or that contemplation to action. I've made a decision.
Christine Higgins (22:33.688)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (22:38.838)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (22:45.698)
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (22:49.417)
I want to do this thing or I want to make this change. I want to achieve this goal. I'm going to jump into action. And what I find is that, you know, they might do that action for one day, two days, maybe even a week if they're lucky. But they don't get beyond that because there was never a plan in place, right?
Christine Higgins (22:56.866)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (23:03.052)
Yes, exactly. Yes.
Christine Higgins (23:11.574)
Yes, yes. So I was going to say one of the things you want to think about with a plan is, is it an agreement with your values? Right? So we think about what we value. We value good health, right? And when a healthcare professional says, you know what, I think this is what's happening, or I think you should watch out for this, your cholesterol is high. That's when we make those
those decisions, like I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna cut out bread and pasta, right? And you go to a party on New Year's Day and what's on the table but a steaming hot bowl of pasta primavera, right? And all of a sudden we think, and sometimes we say, you know what, I'll start tomorrow, which is fine, but it's sort of, didn't quite have a plan. I didn't really think about suppose this happens.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (24:05.953)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (24:09.557)
So sometimes it's good to think about, well, what are you going to do when, right? When Andrew calls and says, come on, don't be a stick in the mud, right? And sort of try and coerce you. And the other thing I want to tell you about Dr. DiClemente, because another, I assume you've had this come up, smoking, right? Trying to quit smoking. So a very difficult.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (24:17.845)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (24:24.15)
Yeah.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (24:33.761)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (24:37.868)
behavior change, a real challenge. Dr. DiClemente came up with, so there's an organ, you know, it's part of the University of Maryland, but it's called 1 -800 -QUIT. So that's a place where you can start by calling a kind of support line to say this is my goal. But he came up with something that was called QUIT Monday. And what it meant was, you know, you don't have to say
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (24:49.887)
Hmm hmm hmm.
Christine Higgins (25:07.051)
on January 2nd or even January 1st, I didn't do it. I had the pasta, I had the drinks, whatever. Quit Monday is you have 52 chances a year. So if it didn't work this Monday, try again next Monday. And the idea is that you're developing some, first of all, some faith in yourself, right? I'm gonna keep doing this. I'm gonna keep pursuing it because it's important to me. So if you think about values, what do we value?
Well, family is a big one. A lot of people value family connections. And if somehow your family is rejecting you or you're disappointing your family, you you can't come to Sunday dinner because they just don't feel good enough, right? So a lot of times our behavior can be in conflict with those values. We say we value something, but we don't act on it in that way. So that's an important...
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (25:59.158)
Hmm.
Christine Higgins (26:05.49)
thing to think about, what do I value? If I value education, then I get myself to class. I complete my assignments, right? I talk with my professors. You have to sort of say to yourself, I value this. And if you don't, it's hard to do without valuing.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (26:24.297)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, and is there alignment? I love those examples, especially with school.
Christine Higgins (26:29.603)
Right? Yeah. Yeah, is there alignment? Is there a feeling like we said earlier, will this make me better off? So that idea of this is important to me. I find can be just the reinforcement of what it is I really want to do. You know, we used to have, I used to talk about this, that we had this idea that, you know, there's a good angel and a bad angel.
And the good angel is saying you should get up and go to class. And the bad angel says, you could sleep in just this one time. Right. And sometimes we get caught in that trap that there's good behavior and bad behavior. And somehow you keep gravitating towards bad behavior. But really it's about what do I value? What's important to me? And if say, for example, you're in a program where you're not satisfied, where you're
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (27:10.507)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (27:26.822)
where you're constantly sort of rubbing up against the goal, then maybe it isn't something you value. Maybe, and that's something that's hard because everybody else is saying, well, of course you should finish this, right? But maybe it's not for you to finish. Maybe there's something else.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (27:45.053)
Yeah, one of the things that I like about the stages of change is that it comes across as less judgmental, right? Like I think one, if we have not achieved our goals, we feel really bad about ourselves. We feel discouraged. Maybe we develop some beliefs about ourselves. Like I'm incapable of achieving that. Maybe there are also people in our life, right? Like we know this from the therapy world where
Christine Higgins (27:53.478)
Right.
Christine Higgins (28:05.374)
Exactly, exactly.
Christine Higgins (28:11.898)
Yes.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (28:12.275)
maybe years ago and hopefully not still today, but possibly still today, are therapists were trained in drug and alcohol, like, swag your finger at someone, tell them, stop doing that, just stop, just change, right? But like we know that shaming people or just saying, well, you should stop doing that doesn't actually help people change. So whether there are people from the outside telling you,
Christine Higgins (28:22.596)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Christine Higgins (28:31.803)
Yes.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (28:39.233)
to just stop or just change or whether we've come to believe that we are incapable of something. I the stages of change gives us a little bit more insight and understanding about how all people make change, that we all go through these different stages whenever we're trying to make a change. And I think the other thing that you and I talk about a lot when we're talking about stages of changes
This idea that it's not like some people out in the world are trying to make change in their life, but that's not me, right?
Christine Higgins (29:14.459)
Right, right. That's it. Yeah, and that's what I'm trying to get at with the good angel bad angel that we think well I'm just bad. I'm just bad at this instead to think about it as what do I want? What's important to me and and also looking at roadblocks? What's standing in my way? Something else that I often ask if I'm doing a motivational interviewing
is to ask an individual who's in your corner. Because we really don't make these changes alone. If you think about a significant change you made, may, somebody may pop into your head, my aunt Eileen was so helpful, you know, because she really supported me, she didn't judge me, right? So someone who is non -judgmental and feels like they have your best interest at heart. So,
you look to that person, it doesn't have to be someone, let's say you want to take up a sport, right? So it doesn't have to be someone who also knows how to ski. You could say, I want to learn how to ski so I can go on weekends with my pals and enjoy myself and get some exercise. It's someone who cares about you, who says, well, what do you think the first step is, right? So just looking for people who support you in your dreams.
Bye.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (30:41.867)
Yes, so Christine, so far we've been talking about things that we want to change, right? Like that maybe we would say are like, not, you know, like I wanna stop drinking, I wanna stop smoking, right? Like we might think about these are negative behaviors we can say that like we wanna remove and get rid of. But what if someone, it's not, that's not the case, like, but maybe I have this big dream that I want to achieve.
Christine Higgins (30:47.778)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (30:54.387)
Mm -hmm.
Yes,
Christine Higgins (31:10.819)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (31:11.265)
but I'm kind of scared about my dream. Maybe I'm kind of, it's so big, it scares me, I'm intimidated. How could someone who has a big dream use the stages of change to guide them in the direction they're trying to go?
Christine Higgins (31:13.89)
No, no, no.
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (31:27.894)
Well, I would say, so that sounds like your past pre -contemplation, right? And I think if we just think of something, maybe like getting a degree, buying a new home. So things that are, you look to the future and you think I want that even maybe meeting someone, wanting to be with someone that's where it's a permanent.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (31:32.001)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (31:49.675)
Ooh, let's do that one. I hear that all the time. Let's go with, I want to find a good partner.
Christine Higgins (31:52.481)
okay.
Christine Higgins (31:56.275)
You want to find a good partner? Okay. So we're past pre -contemplation. We're not thinking I'm fine alone. This is just my life. I'm not going to ever meet anybody. So we're in contemplation. This seems like something that would add to my life. Right? And we start, maybe we see someone else and we think, you know, my best friend's getting married and I'm, I'm, still haven't met someone. So we, we started thinking that.
That's a valuable thing to me. I'd like to share my life with someone. And then we move into that all important planning preparation. So we start to think, well, how do you meet someone? So one thing you can do is look to the past. So how did I meet the person that maybe I had a good relationship with? How did I meet new people? It doesn't have to be like a
romantic relationship, but how did I meet new people? I used to, I belong to this club or I used to go running with these folks or I just was, I just was hanging out in a coffee shop and you know, so get to know yourself. Like how have you done those things in the past and what was satisfying about those relationships? What is it that you're looking for? Right? So a lot of people now do dating sites, which is, you know, alien to me.
But I certainly understand it. It's kind of looking for what's the person, who's the person that I might match with. And that's a reason to be honest about who you are and what appeals to you because you're trying to find a mate. So even that I think would be something that I would call action, right? You're on a dating site, you're looking at different profiles or...
As we said, you start hanging out in certain places, some location on a university campus, and you start, I would make a dream list. would say that would be part of my action too, which is I want someone I find attractive. I want someone who has certain level of education. I want someone who has,
Christine Higgins (34:20.52)
good morals or kindness, and then you have something to kind of match up, right, to say, well this person's checking some of the boxes, and that might be something that I would pursue. It's interesting, because it seems to connect with people who are coming to you saying, well, there's nothing else to do, right? So maybe the last relationship you had, you did meet the person at a bar, right, or a cocktail hour.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (34:40.875)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (34:49.47)
But maybe you met that person, you know, at a pumpkin maze. You know, just where do I go and how, and also I guess in that action stage or in the preparation stage, again, what matters to me? What kind of relationship would be most satisfying to me? And how do you find that person? Is that helpful?
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (35:19.285)
Yeah, and I'm also thinking about, as I'm thinking about, you know, people who are in this situation for real, like the idea that I do have to take action, right? Like, or with whatever change it is we want for our life, whatever the dream or goal is, I do have to take action. I do need a plan and I do need to take action, right? If I never leave my house, it's going to be real hard to find a partner.
Christine Higgins (35:25.757)
Mm -hmm.
Yes, yes, yes, it's.
Christine Higgins (35:36.846)
Yes. Yes. Right, exactly. You can't be... Exactly. You can't be... You're welcome to sit home on the couch and cry when you feel that way, but it's not going to find you a partner. Yeah. And again, I always say look for support who's in your corner. So, for example, I was thinking that support might be a life coach.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (35:52.949)
Right?
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (36:01.963)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (36:02.554)
You know, if you, and a lot of times people will say, well, you know what? I just, I just put the investment. might be a monetary investment, but it might be a way to move forward. And in that case, it's worth it. Right. So maybe I need to find a therapist. Maybe I need to find, you know, a group that, you know, book club, if that's, if I love to read and, I love to talk about books and that sounds like a spot where I might.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (36:13.494)
Yeah.
Christine Higgins (36:31.311)
you know, it might be beneficial, or going to a reading at a bookstore, where you're going to meet the kind of person that's suited to you. And I think it takes courage, right? It's courage to go up to somebody and say, I see you reading that book. I read that. How do you like it? Right? So maybe you again need some coaching, saying to friends, how did you meet your husband, your boyfriend, your girlfriend?
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (36:44.085)
Yeah.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (36:58.773)
Yeah, coaching can be great. And you know, someone is like, I really need support. I've tried doing this a hundred times on my own, right? Working with whether it's a therapist who is trained in motivational interviewing and the stages of chain who understands, what process we have to go through in order to make change can be great as well. so for anyone who's listening, because we are, you know, getting towards the end of the year.
Christine Higgins (37:03.832)
Mm -hmm. Right. Right.
Christine Higgins (37:11.328)
I'm okay. I'm okay.
Christine Higgins (37:19.662)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (37:25.07)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (37:26.097)
People are going to be thinking about this, but for anyone who is listening, I want you to think about what is a behavior that you want to change or what is a goal that you have. And based on the stages of change that you've just heard Christine talk about pre -contemplation, I'm not thinking about change at all, or contemplation, I'm thinking about it. I'm, you know, doing my pros and cons of change or preparation. I'm making a plan, action, maintenance, recurrence.
Christine Higgins (37:32.59)
Thank you.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (37:55.553)
to think about what is the behavior I want to change or what is the goal that I have and where am I in the stage of change? Where am I?
Christine Higgins (38:05.369)
Also, I wanted to mention to everyone that there are probably a dozen images if you do a search and maybe do an image search, stages of change. You'll see a couple of different diagrams, but that will help you in terms of where am I, what stage am I in, and also just as a reminder to say, okay, this is
this is where I think I am. And maybe to even say if you are in pre -contemplation about something, I just don't want to face that. Then recognize it. I'm in pre -contemplation. I'm not ready. I'm not interested in making a change right now. I'm okay the way I am, you know?
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (38:52.631)
And that can be maybe important, right? Like some people are very adamant, like, I'm not interested in quitting smoking. I don't have a problem. Even though maybe they're hacking up along and other people would disagree. But there are times where maybe we have a hard time admitting that something that we're doing that maybe is not actually problematic at all, but maybe it's, maybe other people don't like it, but it's not actually a problem. Sometimes we might have a hard time just saying, I'm not interested.
Christine Higgins (38:59.404)
Yeah,
Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Higgins (39:18.42)
Yes, yes. And to that point, it was interesting what you bring up because maybe you're trying to help someone else make a change. And if you're trying to help someone else make a change, it's important to think to yourself, what stage are they in? And if they're in pre -contemplation, it will be hard. It's like as we started out, we were talking about addiction and we look at someone and we think your life is so hard and you're struggling and you're not well.
and why won't you change? it's because they're in pre -contemplation. They haven't considered looking at some way that will be better. And I just read a post by my friend's son who had a terrible addiction and he was writing on Facebook that all he ever thought about, know, so he was addicted to heroin, all he ever thought about was how do I get my next fix? That was just his...
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (39:51.371)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (40:13.652)
mindset, there was never an idea of, life could be different. You know, was not this rosy idea of, I could stop. He was driven in that way. So it's good to recognize that. If someone's in contemplation, then you can talk with them to say, what are the pros and what are the cons of this particular behavior you have?
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (40:18.421)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (40:41.674)
Sometimes you can do a dreaming question, is what would you do if you didn't have this huge student loan? What would you do? What would be something that would be satisfying to you? A lot of people have creative drive and they put that aside. It's not valuable. It's not going to help me get where I need to get. It's not going to pay off. But recognize.
How could I make this work? And as I've said repeatedly, the other thing I wanted to mention is that some of those images, I have one image of the stages of change where you see a person kind of sliding down, right? That it's sort of a spiral. And sometimes you'll see it's a spiral up and down, which means it's not easy and doesn't happen on the first try.
And that doesn't mean you should give up. It doesn't mean you should say, well, I'm a failure at this. But simply, I need to do more work.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (41:45.161)
And so hopefully people have found this helpful to think about, where am I at? What's the behavior I want to change? Or what's the goal I want to work towards? Where am I at in this stage of change? Am I okay with where I'm at if I'm like, let's say, pre -contemplation? How do I move through the stages if I do want to move forward with a change or in pursuing something that's really important to me? So Christine, I always ask people, what is a big dream that you have?
Christine Higgins (41:57.628)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (42:03.4)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Christine Higgins (42:12.137)
Mm
Christine Higgins (42:17.792)
Well, gosh, have, I have, I feel like I have a lot, I guess one is always I write poetry and that's kind of my vocation and I've made my life work so that I can do that. And, you know, obviously it's not a great income, but I do enjoy being published and I do enjoy sharing my work. So my goal is always to find time.
to actually pursue something that's very important to me and to keep working at it. Anybody who is in the writing field knows that there's lots of rejection, that there's lots of people out there looking for that acceptance. And so it takes a lot of self -preservation to say, I'm okay. I often say.
This matters to me.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (43:18.291)
Mm -hmm. Right. Well, thank you so much, Christine, for coming on today. I'm going to make sure that we have your contact information in our show notes for anyone who's interested in reaching out to you because I know that you do a fantastic job providing organizations with training and motivational interviewing, motivational incentives, stages of change. And so for anyone who might be
Christine Higgins (43:35.878)
Well, thank you.
Christine Higgins (43:42.008)
Yes, yes.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (43:47.807)
wanting to use Christine as a trainer, you can definitely reach out to her using the information in our show notes.
Christine Higgins (43:49.072)
Mm
Christine Higgins (43:55.282)
Great, thanks so much for having me. It was fun. I love disseminating what feels like helpful information.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (44:02.503)
Yes. All right. Well, I hope if you're listening that you will use this information to help you move forward as we're moving towards wrapping up the year and thinking about where am I and what might my next stage of change be. And we'll talk to you soon.
Christine Higgins (44:19.324)
Okay, bye bye.
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