S02 Ep06: Reclaiming Playfulness: How Play Fuels Well-being and Fulfillment with TJ Matton, LCSW-C
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When was the last time you remember being truly playful? And, when you hear the word, "playful," what comes up for you? In a world where we're taught to "work hard," we can be left with the notion that there's no room for play. Today's guest, TJ Matton, would love to change that!
In this episode, TJ Matton explores the concept of play, its significance in adult life, and how it can be integrated into daily routines. You'll hear TJ talk about the cultural disconnect from play, especially in women and children, and the importance of rediscovering play as a means of enhancing mental health and well-being. The conversation also touches on the role of play in parenting, the relationship between play and mindfulness, and the various styles of play. TJ believes that play is not just an activity but a vital experience that can transform lives.
Ready for more playfulness in your life? Now's the time to tune in!
Follow TJ Matton
Instagram: @theplayfulrevolution
Website: https://theplayfulrevolution.com
How to Engage Play in Your Healing, A Free Guided Practice: https://www.theplayfulrevolution.com/engage-play-in-healing -
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (00:01.656)
Hi and welcome back to the Dreaming and Doing podcast. Today I am here with TJ Mattan and TJ and I met many, what feels like many, many years ago doing brain spotting training together. We haven't been together live in years, but we've been seeing one another on social media. And so I'm really excited to be catching up today and to be talking with TJ about something that I really love that she's doing.
TJ (00:25.346)
Yeah, for sure.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (00:31.096)
So to give you some background, TJ is a social worker, psychotherapist, coach, and constructive misbehavior enthusiast, helping adults liberate their mind and bodies through play. TJ's business, The Playful Revolution, is focused on helping people understand the neuroscience of play and reconnect with the power and potential of play. Play, she says, is a primal need to the human body and is the neglected side of mindfulness.
TJ helps people find enjoyment in the everyday, playful ways to manage stress and empowering ways to create greater fulfillment. So I know that many people, right, I'm sure would be like, that sounds great. So TJ, I'm excited to have you here to talk about play. Welcome to the podcast.
TJ (01:17.912)
Yeah, it's so fun to get to be together after so many years and I love talking about play so I'm stoked to be here.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (01:27.434)
Yes, so I'm really curious when you use the word play for anyone who's like, what does that mean? Like I'm a grown up, I'm an adult. What exactly does that mean to play? How do you define play?
TJ (01:35.49)
Yeah.
TJ (01:39.286)
Yeah. Yeah. So play is a super loaded word in our culture. So I define play as being engaged with something with your enjoyment as the central focus. And so we, often teach play as like sort of its own form of mindfulness, right? But not a one in which there is, it is the practice of silence, but actually the practice of activating and exciting the nervous system. So
It is that like, what are you playing for? Like what are all of the coping skills? What are all the things that you're working on? Like what is it for, right? And play is this practice. And so I define play as like being engaged with something, with your enjoyment as the central focus. And so fun and laughter and creativity, like those are byproducts of play. They are not actually like the play experience.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (02:33.41)
That's what I was gonna ask you, right? I tend to use the word fun, like, ooh, that's so fun. We need to have more fun in life. So talk with me a little bit about that distinction that you just made, the difference between play and fun.
TJ (02:47.32)
Well, you know, think fun again is like something that we get like from the invigoration of being in the play experience and and fun. So like and again, we often think about fun as like whimsical and frivolous, like and that is a really valuable play subset. But fun is sort of more of like a byproduct that we experience as a result of playing. And so like when we
give people the recommendation or say like, what do you do for fun? Right, you need to go have fun. Like that's a lot of pressure for a lot of people. And so if you go for fun as a direct hit, like it's not gonna go well, right? Like fun becomes this byproduct of like the exploration process that you go through in the play experience.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (03:39.394)
So let me ask you, you started off by saying, play is a loaded word. What are some of the reactions you get from people when they hear the word play as adults?
TJ (03:40.844)
you
TJ (03:51.86)
yeah, so like some of the reactions I get are like, they don't have, people don't have time for it, right? They don't know how. They don't see the point of it, right? So I think these are probably the three biggest things is like sort of not sure how to do it, when to do it, or why to do it, or what to do.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (04:14.486)
Yeah, so I'm thinking about myself. I'm an oldest child. So I know that when I was growing up, I kind of had this sense of like, I don't play with dolls. Like I don't play, make, pretend. I read books and I like science kits and I like looking for bugs in the backyard. For anyone who might have, I don't know.
TJ (04:18.785)
Yeah.
TJ (04:32.771)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (04:40.395)
a sense of, I don't know, that kind of reaction, whether it's growing up or I guess what are your thoughts to people who might have that reaction and or what are some reasons that perhaps we've become disconnected from play?
TJ (04:58.468)
Yeah. So some studies show that like 70 % of girls lose contact with the play experience between the ages of eight and 11. Right? And so we think about this culturally. And one, think it's super, super normal for us to disconnect from play because really we think about play as either childish or for retirees. And then everybody else is technically like a labor -based body historically. And so like once you've entered a labor -based productive body, like
your productivity and your performance overrides your enjoyment. And so it's super normal culturally. Boys typically lose it at five and 15, and girls lose it between eight and 11. And there's different reasons for the gender split. But for girls, they typically lose it because this is a time that they start to really orient towards their peers and start to really care what people think.
And so they start to lose their individuation during this time. And so many of them start to kind of compromise their personal play for a collective experience. And then secondly, this is a time that like kind of gender -based care expectations start to really turn on. Like so good girl behavior, helping out in the house, minding your manners. Like these are times where our expectations of girls just like
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (06:07.426)
Mm -hmm.
TJ (06:25.796)
turn on, right? And so the vulnerability that is like part of the play, part of play just sort of becomes a side like no longer is like as viable for girls at that age. And similarly like to kind of talk about the boys history in play like at five, this is a time that culturally we start to desensitize boys and emotions and
Play requires kind of emotions and vulnerability. And so in order for boys to remain robust in their play, they have to remain vulnerable. And at 15, this is often when we start to see boys start to date. so power dynamics and relationships start to drastically impact, again, the vulnerability that boys are allowed to express in these two specific ages. They're like these two ages that.
Vulnerability is deeply driven down in boys.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (07:28.948)
Yeah, and as you're talking, the thing that's coming to mind is this idea of maturity, right? Whether it's you need to be a big boy or a big girl and meeting these expectations for your age or even is it as you're dating this idea of a maturity level that you might feel expected to show? And how does that maybe influence our sense of okayness with play?
TJ (07:33.486)
Yeah.
TJ (07:38.818)
Yeah.
TJ (07:55.106)
Yeah, right, because play is generally, like, it's not linear, right? Like, some play is linear, meaning, like, it has a start and a middle and an end, like a puzzle or a Lego set or a book, right? And this is play that we culturally approve of a lot more than nonlinear play, right? Things like playing dolls or, like, making potions or just like...
making random scratches on a piece of paper and calling it art, right? Like these are not things that we culturally approve of as much as for play because we don't see this play specifically as like productive or valuable. So culturally, we also really emphasize like linear, like linear style of linear styles of play. Yeah.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (08:48.532)
That's so interesting, right? And I'm thinking about myself. I'm like, yeah, feels good to finish something to be like, check, read that book, right? Did that thing, right? But that, yep.
TJ (08:54.334)
Totally. Organizing the closet, like organizing the closet, you know, like these things feel really good because they, again, like we live in a world that is like ripe with uncertainty, right? So linear play also really can be really settling for the nervous system because it closes a thing, right? It like creates a sense of certainty which can drive down like our stress rates in the body.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (09:08.3)
Yeah.
TJ (09:23.972)
Because again, it like brings you to that place of like kind of certainty and closure that can be really containing and regulating our nervous system.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (09:34.58)
Yeah, well, and I'm also thinking about play as it relates to parenting. I don't know if you've like if you're into the Gottmans at all, but the Gottmans talk about play in their research and about how moms tend to play with their children versus how dads tend to play. And one of their big things is the Gottmans talk about how our research specifically includes dad as an important part of this process and that dads play very differently with children than the
moms do. And I've seen some other things, people recently talking about how the way that dads play differently with children is not just beneficial for the children, but it's also beneficial for the dad. I'm wondering if you can talk about play and how that connects to parenting at all from your experience.
TJ (10:21.954)
Yeah, well, so my background as a mental health therapist is I do attachment trauma, developmental trauma, and for many years have focused on parental mental health and early child, maternal mental health. so I got really into play because I had a bunch of parents of toddlers on my caseload a decade ago, and they were having really interesting reactions to their kids' play.
where they were either really like very invested in building these like kind of perfect Montessori style playrooms, right? And they were like, knew that play was sacred, but they weren't necessarily like having fun doing it. Like there was a lot of pressure around it and they didn't necessarily know how to play, but they understood the value of play.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (11:06.688)
Hmm.
TJ (11:17.016)
And then there was this other side of parents that I was seeing like kind of a secondary wave of like postpartum anxiety and postpartum OCD where like toddler play was so very quickly overstimulating. The chaos and the uncertainty of it was like super overwhelming. And I just got very intrigued by parents' responses to play. like culturally right now, I think we have a generation of parents who are starting to value play again.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (11:45.206)
Hmm.
TJ (11:46.668)
like, you know, and we're putting kids into things like play therapy over like ABA style therapy. And we're seeing like a lot of undoing of like kind of concrete behavioral work for kids in a way. And so there's a generation of adults who are starting to value play, but don't actually know how to play. And so I think I'm always really one of the things I always encourage people when they're thinking about like
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (12:07.872)
Hmm.
TJ (12:15.044)
playing with their kids is understanding that when we are playing with our, when we play, there has to be a power balance, right? And this is one of the things I like that I think is so important, like more on like a social justice aspect around play, right? So like I, if I went to go play basketball with LeBron James, right? Like we would have to make significant adjustments for us to be viable play buddies, right?
Like he'd have to get on his knees maybe or get blindfolded. One time I love this. Well, I was at a workshop and I asked this question and somebody was like, you could put them in stripper heels. And I was like, absolutely. Like that might do the game in, right? But you'd have to shift the power balance between myself and LeBron to be play buddies. And that same sort of thing is gonna happen in a parental dynamic where a parent has to be able to like take themselves out of like that teacher or that modeling position and rather like,
how do I enter the vulnerability of being a good play buddy? But the reality is that this is really hard for parents because we're in a totally different maturation stage of our life. And oftentimes our kids are still learning their own styles of play and they really just need us to enter almost as a doll, like where we are an object of their play rather than like,
the intensity of the relational experience within play. So one of the things I always kind of think is really important is that the more you know your personal play as an adult, the more capable you are of having flexibility in the parent to child play relationship. But it is really hard to rediscover your play.
in that relationship because like your kids are not your play buddies. You are their play buddies, but they are not your play buddies. And so like, always like tell, you know, when I have parents in my caseload and they're like, they're like, yeah, you know, like I love going on walks with my kids and like, and I, and like, we just pick out our favorite leaves and our favorite acorns. like, yes, if you like doing that, that's a gateway to your play. How can we pull that out so we can explore more of what you long for in that?
TJ (14:35.48)
Because at some point your kids are gonna mature and they're not gonna wanna play with you. And so it's so important to have this sort of deeper relationship with your own individual play that you can bring into the parenting dynamic in a different relational way.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (14:39.158)
Right?
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (14:54.03)
Yeah, and I really appreciate that distinction, right? You being your children's play buddy versus them being yours and still needing to be connected to something that is playful for yourself. You know, a lot of times when I'm working with moms in particular who their children are going off to college, they're leaving the homes, you know, they've just spent the last 18 years facilitating their children's academic endeavors, putting them in sports and activities and helping them cultivate whatever it is they're trying
TJ (14:55.384)
you
TJ (15:19.107)
life.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (15:23.996)
to help them cultivate. Kids leave the house and now they're like I don't know myself. I don't know what is important to me. Like my children felt like my purpose. So I'm wondering what recommendations do you have for parents to retain something for themselves and active play for themselves that it's not always about my children and helping them but retaining that for themselves and maintaining that.
TJ (15:25.142)
Mm
TJ (15:34.69)
Yeah.
TJ (15:53.538)
Yeah. Well, one of the things I think is so important that like I go over, I go over and over and over again and again and again in my work is that play is not an action, it's an experience. And so really it is about cultivating a playful mind that facilitates a playful experience. And so like for instance, you could go out on a sporting field, right? And play and quote, play soccer, right?
That doesn't mean that everybody is playing, right? You and I could play chess, but I don't know how to play and you kick my butt, right? Maybe you play, but like I don't necessarily play. So one thing I think is really helpful for people to understand is that play is actually a state within our nervous system. It is, it lives between what we call like culturally the ventral state, which is the rest and digest state and the parasympathetic fight and flight.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (16:25.58)
Hmm.
TJ (16:52.77)
So play is actually a blended state where we're on, right? Like we're excited, we're checking things out, right? Like we're activated from that fight or flight aspect of the nervous system, but we're safe enough to explore the risks within the moment. And so I always think it's really important for people to understand because I think when we culturally think about play, we think about hobbies.
and really in that, again, kind of productive -based play versus understanding that play is actually a neurological state that we want to learn to cultivate any time. So the question is starting with, we always start with, when was the last time you kind of lost yourself in something? Whether it was a book, a TV show.
a movie, like, we're like, what triggers that experience for you of like, feeling lost in something. And that begins to kind of we get from there, we get to cultivate like, the play story for them, right. And one of the things I think is like women who have really kind of like driven their play down and parenting, I find are often really
skilled storytellers, right? In many ways, they've been playing a part or role of a mother. Like they have an idea or a story surrounding what it means to be a good parent. And so if you have a really heightened or robust, like narrative about like who you are as a parent, what it means to be a good parent, you're invested in your child's story, right? That I find that women who stay kind of
have stayed tight in that role are really gifted storytellers, but haven't taken the, haven't like kind of shifted and challenged the vulnerability of who they are in other frame, other stories, right? They've taken on a very kind of like one book story rather than like, you know, like, I don't know, a series of stories where this is more like a character.
TJ (19:15.72)
moment of a character story. And so I really kind of begin to reframe it as like, what's next in the story of who you are?
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (19:24.396)
Yeah. And I'm thinking about what you said earlier around play and mindfulness. And I'm thinking about that right now in light of what you talked about having like play being an experience, play being a mindset. You know, when we talk about mindfulness, at least when I talk with clients about mindfulness, a lot of times people say, well, I don't have time to take time out of my day, but really communicating this idea of mindfulness as something that is integrated
into your day and that doesn't necessarily require you to take extra time out of your day in order to be mindful. And so I'm thinking about that here as you're thinking about play as a mindset, something that is an experience and not necessarily something that requires you to block it off on your calendar.
TJ (20:17.762)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that a lot of people kind of come to the work with like where play is a loaded word and mindfulness is a loaded word, particularly for parents, because we have sort of combined mindfulness and calm. So it ends up feeling like just another form of like good behavior for a lot of clients. And I think part of what I think is really important is that like
is that we don't have an expectation attached to play, right? Like behaviorally, right? Like we have expectations that we're working around as far as an experience, right? Like an experience of feeling alive, an experience of feeling connected, an experience of losing sense of, like one of the things that happens in play is your ego mind checks out. So you can't necessarily, like, you can't self -criticize and play at the same time.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (21:13.847)
Hmm.
TJ (21:14.724)
So this is part of like building and play is what builds neural, new neural pathways for new thinking, new behaving, new ways of like being in the world because like play is a practice of experimenting. And so, you know, for me when people come to the work, like I recognize both play is super loaded for many people and mindfulness is super loaded for people. And
Both of these come with really rich personal stories and experiences to the words.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (21:55.478)
Yes. Now for anyone who's like, hear the words coming out of your mouth, but I can't really conceptualize what this means, what this looks like. Can you give us some examples of what unscripted play might look like in the course of a day for an adult?
TJ (22:02.457)
Yeah.
apply them. Yeah. Yeah.
TJ (22:15.778)
Yeah, so really it's about entering any single moment that you're checked out and be like, how could I enjoy this moment a little bit more? Right? So it may be that like you, one of the places I actually think play is really good at recultivating and like re -experiencing is in things that you do in a mundane way every single day. Right? So like brushing your teeth, right?
So there's a million ways that we could talk about play and brushing your teeth. And I often use this because it's so boring and something we're so used to doing. And so it's a place that, because play often has like a need, there's a novelty need within play, but also a repetition aspect that we have to balance. So one of the things I talk about in brushing teeth with people and like helping re -cultivate like how do I play and what does it mean to play?
is like, I sometimes will ask people like, what intrigues you the most? Like nerdy aspect of like getting rid of like all of the gunk and getting to a place of clean oral hygiene and imagining like the cleanliness of it, right? Like, are you intrigued by like the nerdy aspect of like, and like the perfectionist almost aspect of
brushing your teeth. Are you intrigued by the fact that the mouth actually is one of the most critical organs for your body? Like, are you, can you imagine that brushing your teeth is one of the most critical, like, and loving care tasks you can do, right? Or do you want to think about it in like a different, sillier?
framework where like all of the teeth need to be clean so they can see each other and they can be friends with each other and they all have like, you know, everybody's working together in there, right? Or are you intrigued by like the movement of brushing your teeth, right? Like, could you pay attention to like the way your whole body wiggles, right? And so this alone may help people start to conceptualize, am I an intellectual player or like a heart and story player or a body player?
TJ (24:37.314)
Right, so even kind of noticing like which one is the most, because none of them necessarily immediately call us in, they're all just like options to begin to explore like who am I as a player, right? Like am I somebody who loves the intellectualization aspect of play, like kind of, these are often people who like may love making PowerPoints, like may love a nerdy book, may, you know, rabbit hole into certain topics.
versus like people who like may like watch more fantasy within the world and be more daydreamers and like have some feelings like within the like within the body versus like people who like really have like more of a higher sensory need for play in that like body and kinesthetic way. And so I think it's helpful for people to just take something like brushing their teeth.
to be like, where do I live in this sort of play? And then the second thing is like, when do I know I'm done? Do I know I'm done because I feel done? And these are people who are often more like traditionally nonlinear players. Like, yeah, I think I feel, they feel clean. I feel done. Versus like, nope, I got every tooth. Every tooth was touched.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (26:02.444)
Hmm.
TJ (26:03.714)
Right? Which if you're like an every tooth type of person, you may be somebody more inclined towards like linear closed looped play. So I think like even thinking about brushing your teeth is an invitation to begin to dissect who am I as a player.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (26:21.228)
Now TJ, am I remembering this correctly? But did I see that you were doing some type of workshop or something to help people determine what kind of play they were into? Am I making that up? Okay. So.
TJ (26:34.722)
no, it's definitely like part of my work. That's definitely part of my work because I think when you can figure out who you are as like a type of player, it helps you build language and that language gives you clarity and capacity to self advocate and like an into a moment, right? The same way we love knowing our love languages or our attachment styles or like our Myers -Briggs numbers or our enograms, right? Like all of these are ways.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (26:43.212)
Mm -hmm.
TJ (27:02.052)
we get to have language to equality within us. And so I think the languaging of our play style is super important for people and helping be like, yeah, that sounds like me. Right? They can claim it a little bit.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (27:14.815)
Yeah.
Yeah, so for anyone who's like, I don't know what kind of play I'm into, like what, how could they figure that out?
TJ (27:26.808)
Well, it's not easy. I will say that. Only because there's not like a conclusive like research or definition, right? Like, so I work off of like a bunch of other, a bunch of people's stuff. Like Stuart Brown has a wonderful book called Play. And he talks about like eight play personalities, right?
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (27:48.705)
Hmm.
TJ (27:54.604)
I also take a lot of classes from kinesthetic players, Who encourage both, who teach both high levels of improvisational work as well as high levels of skilled choreography work. And so I take a lot of my research from kinesthetic and dance work. then I also, there is a guy named Renee.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (27:59.394)
Hmm.
TJ (28:20.302)
and I'm trying to remember his last name, but he talks about there being four different play profiles that is like whimsical, other directed, which is like people who really love being told what to do, right? Like instructional based play, serious play and lighthearted play. And like whimsical being things like jokers, like...
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (28:34.999)
Hmm.
TJ (28:48.996)
or like, and people who are attracted to the weird oddities, right? So there's no like conclusive, like, this is where you would find out who you are as a player, right? Which is part of what I think is really important about my work, as well as some of the other play coaches that are like kind of popping up. aren't very many of us. I think there's like 20 of us in the US. And as far as I know, I'm the only mental health therapist doing it. But many of us are kind of,
pulling research together to help people build this languaging for themselves.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (29:26.912)
Yeah, I love that. And as you're talking, I'm definitely thinking about my nieces and my nephews and kind of what that looks like when they're around. What are some things that you wish people knew about play?
TJ (29:42.276)
wish that people knew that play is not always robust and extravagant. I think when we think about play, we are often drawn to the people who take up the most space, or the loudest jokers in the room, or people who have a lot of privilege. And that play can be extremely, again, because play is an experience, it can be soft and quiet.
is like, what would it mean to enjoy your book just a little bit more? Like to notice, what would it feel like if I had fun while I was reading? To like, I talk a lot about like one of the things, we do a lot of shaming of like women's play in particular. So like, I have a lot of clients who like are really into the Real Housewives shows, right? But they feel shame and embarrassment about it, right? And so like, one of the things I talk about is like,
this is a form of like, like Real Housewives is like basically gladiators, right? It's basically like access to rough and tumble play and storytelling play and like, you know, and so there's an invitation to just be like, what if I allowed myself to enjoy what I was already enjoying and how could I begin to notice that a little bit more? And so like play is often,
already in like there's so many opportunities to just sort of lean into the playful mind and so I always try to remind people that like you don't have to change your life in order to become playful but once you begin to pull a playful mind forward your life will change because play is this inherent place that we have more capacity more flexibility more compassion more capacity for connection
more creativity, more adaptability, like all of these are skills and qualities that get, that emerge more abundantly when we have a robust play framework in our body.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (31:55.33)
Yeah. yeah.
TJ (31:56.398)
Can I mention one other nerdy thing about play? So play is actually homoesthetically regulated the same way sleep and hunger and thirst are. So like you're either play nourished or you're play deprived, right? Like you're, and so again, a lot of kind of like the mental health stressors that many of our, many of us navigate on a day -to -day basis can be treated with my like intentional play included in their life.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (32:04.866)
Hmm.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (32:27.242)
Yes, and I'm wondering for anyone who's listening and they're like, I feel really disconnected from play. It feels so long since I've had that in my life. Maybe there's still a tape in the back of my head that's like, that is beneath you play. That's not cool. That's not allowed for people who
maybe acknowledge that that voice might be there or acknowledge that play has been absent in their lives for a while. I guess what are some things that they can do to overcome that and how can people rediscover their play?
TJ (33:03.202)
Yeah. So I think it's incredibly normal for adults to feel intimidated by reentering play because again, like play inherently includes vulnerability, right? And so I think one of the things that I think is really important is once you start playing, you will remember how good it feels to play. And cause one of the things is that the body will want more of it. And so to not set the bar high,
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (33:25.452)
Mm -hmm.
TJ (33:32.65)
at all. Like go for the lowest hanging fruit you possibly can in a way. So that you can begin to recultivate like the remembering experience of play and the longing in the body and like the capacity in the body. And that play can like kind of expand and shrink with our moment to moment capacity. So to begin to explore where am I most capable of playing? And some people are
feel safest playing on their own. I think this is the case for a lot of neurodivergence who have a history of masking, right? Where they only, or with people with developmental trauma, right? That had to hide their authentic selves, right? That the safest place to play is often by themselves because that is the place where nobody can reject them, right? So some people really benefit from embracing like the solo nature of play.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (34:23.906)
Hmm.
TJ (34:30.36)
Some people really benefit doing things like parallel playing, right? And like body doubling, right? So that may be like taking a book to a library or a puzzle to a library where like people are doing similar like activities, right? And you have, you, so you feel the surrounding of another person without the necessarily like interpersonal co -regulation.
And then some people have really high relational drives where they really need to play buddy in it. And so again, I think one of the ways to begin to explore like where do I even begin is lower the bar as low as you possibly can where like you're just cultivating enough risk that it almost feels like lighting a match, but not a fire, right? So like we're not setting fire. We're just lighting one match. We're not even gonna light a candle yet, right?
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (35:19.222)
Hmm.
TJ (35:26.82)
And so lowest bar you possibly can to feel that like little flicker of flame and understanding like it can be quiet and on your own. Like you may sort of like mirror somebody in line and be like, let me see if I could be like a body alien, right? Where nobody else would notice. Or like you may need to lean into a group activity that interests you.
to cultivate those relationships if that's your natural place of play.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (36:03.35)
Yes, Nati, this is work that you do. How do you integrate playfulness into your life?
TJ (36:06.627)
Yes.
TJ (36:12.006)
my gosh. Last night I had, so I have integrated playfulness in so many different ways over the years. But, and I've always had a lot of, so for the last eight years, maybe seven years, I have taken every single Thursday night to myself. And this started actually because I had a daughter, I was a single parent, and my now husband got involved in our family.
And the only way to really kind of cultivate their relationship was for me to leave the house. Otherwise, she wouldn't even like.
talk to him or trust him to like make a snack or anything. So like really the only way that I could cultivate any relationship with them when it started to feel safe was by like leaving. And so like Thursday nights became like sort of like that time where I would like do stuff on my own to give them just a little bit of time together. And that just kind of grew and grew. So like.
For me, I do a lot of movement. Like I'm really drawn to kinesthetic play. So like in between all of my client sessions, I am dancing or moving. When I have a session where like a client has told me a really like incredible story, right? Like I often will then do an interpretive dance around like what that experience, like what the story like felt like in my body, right?
So I am very much an improvisational movement storyteller. And I practice that very religiously. But this year, my play has taken this really fun and also challenging turn where all of a sudden I'm creating some really linear play for the first time in my life. So I did my first puzzle ever this year. I've never done a puzzle. I did my first puzzle ever this year.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (38:03.478)
Hmm.
TJ (38:08.748)
I like reorganized my medicine cabinet and like had a great time doing it. I am currently building a shed on the side of my house. It's mostly a very expensive house for my trash cans. So like recently my play has been turning a lot more linear. But like last night we have a singer songwriter's festival here in Annapolis. And so I went and I listened
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (38:18.453)
Wow.
TJ (38:37.88)
to storytellers, like talk about like the craft of their song and the creating of their song. And so those are some of the ways I cultivate play, but I, it feels so entrenched in my way of living now that there are both very anchored play activities as well as like, you know, I will like.
when I'm like really burnt out making snacks, will like, you know, slide into pretending that I am like a chef and I'm like, slice the, slicing the cucumbers, right? And I'll just like narrate in my head and I'm all of a sudden like laughing at myself and I'm like, my God, this is so stupid. Like here I am like slicing the 18th cucumber this week. But it's like, all of a sudden I'm not like annoyed. Cause I don't want to be annoyed at my kids for eating.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (39:29.224)
Mm -hmm.
TJ (39:32.622)
What a stupid thing to be annoyed about. And I think that's one of the things that I like, probably we both recognize and many of us recognize is that we have a lot of capacity to do hard things. Like I think there's no doubt if we're a therapist and if we're human that we have gotten through some like really hard things. And then we lose our shit at like the stoplights, right? Like the dissonance of what we can handle.
versus what flips our lid on a daily basis is incredibly infuriating for many people. And I think play is this place of how do I not, how do I become more meaningfully engaged and feel myself around these stupid stressors that don't make sense to my being to turn my survival instincts on?
And I think that's a lot of what people come to the work because they just want to either feel better in their day -to -day life or they use play to get better from a very structured nervous system way. So people either just want to feel better or they begin to understand that play is a very powerful nervous system practice.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (40:49.61)
Yes, and I love the work that you're doing, right? Because I think, you know, not just therapists, but I think so many people work really hard or they're trying really hard. They, you know, want to be doing a good job. They want to be making good decisions. And sometimes it feels really overwhelming or we're taking things so seriously. And we do really need that release valve and we need those little moments of joy to fill our cup again.
TJ (40:58.046)
absolutely. Absolutely.
Absolutely.
TJ (41:12.994)
Yeah, absolutely.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (41:16.11)
So TJ, what is a big dream that you have?
TJ (41:20.731)
God, there's so many, but like, my God, there's so many. I honestly, I dream that like, I dream that adults talk about their play style regularly. The way that we talk about, like what's your love language, right? Like what's your attachment style, right? Like I dream that people can like,
go on Tinder dates in a decade and are like, this is my play profile, this is my play style, like what's yours? Are we gonna be good play buddies? Right, that like moms early in child, like moms can like create play dates that are not about their kids but about themselves, you know? And that people just inherently feel this capacity to talk casually about
their play in the same way we're able to talk about what kind of food do you enjoy eating? How much water do you drink on a daily basis? How much sleep do you get every night? That it just becomes something that we become so much more flexible. And that my name is somewhere in that work of bringing that into the normalization.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (42:43.924)
Yes, so for anyone who's like, I want to learn more about play. Maybe it's lacking in my life and I want more or I want to explore this more. How can people find you and learn more about what you're doing?
TJ (42:47.949)
Yes.
TJ (42:57.092)
Yeah, so my work is called The Playful Revolution because I think playing is a personally revolutionary act and I think that it is a social justice act to reclaim your embodiment experience in your life. So come find me at The Playful Revolution both on the web and on Instagram. This year of like 2024 to 2025, my goal is to release like one freebie every single month that
Also, if you download fairly quickly, you get a free 30 minute integration play session to, because I want people to get all different understandings of play and like different ways of playing. So I'm doing like, basically my goal is to do, to release 12 freebies over the next year. And each one will come with like a free integration play session that people can try out all sorts of different plays and understand play from all sorts of different angles. So if you're listening to this, you're right on time.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (43:46.443)
Wow.
TJ (43:53.508)
So, and I just love talking to people about it. So like also you can like find me on Marco Polo and on Instagram and like schedule something on Calendly and just like come shoot the shit and ask me questions and I will like be so happy.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (43:54.072)
Perfect.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (44:08.15)
I love it. Well, thank you so much TJ for talking with us about play. It's something that I think we need more of and for anyone who's listening, you know, I hope that this will spark some ideas, some creativity, some opportunities to find more joy, to have more fun, to have more playfulness in your life because we all need those things.
TJ (44:28.418)
Yeah, it was so good to get to be with you Melissa. Thank you so much for having me.
Melissa Wesner, (she/her) LCPC (44:33.537)
Yes, you too.
Other resources mentioned in this episode:
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